Mortal Sin Vs. Grave Sin

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1802141' date='Mar 9 2009, 10:41 PM']Good lord, seriously?

Your twenty one years old, maturity can be a cool thing.[/quote]

1. You have been irritating me all night.
2. You have no right to call ANYONE immature.
3. Next time you try to insult me, get my age right.

[rkwright]

CCC 1862

One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.


Venial sin=grave matter, without full knowledge or without complete consent.

This really leaves no room for "grave sin". If its a grave matter and the other 2 elements are present = mortal sin. If its a grave matter and an element is missing = venial sin.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1802146' date='Mar 9 2009, 09:44 PM']1. You have been irritating me all night.
2. You have no right to call ANYONE immature.
3. Next time you try to insult me, get my age right.[/quote]


oh my gosh I do not feel like another stupid, petty argument.

I am going to ask questions. When you advocate a position which seems clearly absurd I'm going to qiestion the wisdom of it. If you don't want to answer it feel free not to.

[Resurrexi]

Instances in the Code of Canon Law where grave sin is equivalent to mortal sin.

"Can. 916 Anyone who is conscious of grave sin may not celebrate Mass or receive the Body of the Lord without previously having been to sacramental confession."

I honestly don't think the Church forbids those who committed a sin of grave matter without full knowledge or deliberate consent (e.g. someone who through no fault of his own killed another in a car crash)

"Can. 960 Individual and integral confession and absolution constitute the sole ordinary means by which a member of the faithful who is conscious of grave sin is reconciled with God and with the Church."

"Can. 988 §1 The faithful are bound to confess, in kind and in number, all grave sins committed after baptism, of which after careful examination of conscience they are aware, which have not yet been directly pardoned by the keys of the Church, and which have not been confessed in an individual confession."

"Can. 989 All the faithful who have reached the age of discretion are bound faithfully to confess their grave sins at least once a year."

I am also pretty sure that if one committed a sin of grave matter without full knowledge or deliberate consent, he don't have to confess it.

"Can. 1357 §1 Without prejudice to the provisions of cann. 508 and 976, a confessor can in the internal sacramental forum remit a latae sententiae censure of excommunication or interdict which has not been declared, if it is difficult for the penitent to remain in a state of grave sin for the time necessary for the competent Superior to provide."

I think the most convincing instance in the Code is this one. It speaks of a "state of grave sin".

Edited March 10, 2009 by Resurrexi

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1802087' date='Mar 9 2009, 10:54 PM']Don't rewrite the catechism


You want to side with a dictionary over the catechism that's your call.[/quote]
Its not exactly just a dictionary:
Modern Catholic Dictionary
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
Copyright © 1999 by Inter Mirifica

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1802150' date='Mar 9 2009, 10:46 PM']CCC 1862

One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.


Venial sin=grave matter, without full knowledge or without complete consent.

This really leaves no room for "grave sin". If its a grave matter and the other 2 elements are present = mortal sin. If its a grave matter and an element is missing = venial sin.[/quote]

Okay, so if one of the three elements is missing the sin is considered venial? Like if you remove "grave matter" and are left with "full knowledge" and "deliberate consent" you could say swearing at someone is a venial sin, right? (Knowing it is wrong to do so but exercising your free will.)

[quote name='Hassan' post='1802151' date='Mar 9 2009, 10:46 PM']oh my gosh I do not feel like another stupid, petty argument.[/quote]

Oh get over yourself, just once, that's all I ask.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1802166' date='Mar 9 2009, 10:53 PM']Oh get over yourself, just once, that's all I ask.[/quote]


Can I ask what you mean?

Or are you just going to insinuate something and then scurry off?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1802167' date='Mar 9 2009, 10:55 PM']Can I ask what you mean?

Or are you just going to insinuate something and then scurry off?[/quote]

Why do you need me to clarify EVERYTHING for you? It is what it is. You pick pointless arguments with people and then when you get snarled at you throw up your hands and play the victim.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1802170' date='Mar 9 2009, 10:57 PM']Why do you need me to clarify EVERYTHING for you?[/quote]


Yes, when you insult me that'd be nice.

If you have something serious to say I'm happy to hear it. If, as seems to be the case, you just want an argument I'm tired and am writting several papers at the moment and don't feel like it.

[rkwright]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1802166' date='Mar 9 2009, 09:53 PM']Okay, so if one of the three elements is missing the sin is considered venial? Like if you remove "grave matter" and are left with "full knowledge" and "deliberate consent" you could say swearing at someone is a venial sin, right? (Knowing it is wrong to do so but exercising your free will.)[/quote]

This is how I've always understood it. Though repeated venial sins can lead to mortal sin. Like repeated swearing, knowing its wrong and doing it anyways, may lead to a graver sin - I dunno maybe something like blasphemy or maybe a denial that it is even a sin. Maybe lead to some anger or something?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1802166' date='Mar 9 2009, 09:53 PM']Okay, so if one of the three elements is missing the sin is considered venial? Like if you remove "grave matter" and are left with "full knowledge" and "deliberate consent" you could say swearing at someone is a venial sin, right? (Knowing it is wrong to do so but exercising your free will.)[/quote]

Right. There are three requirements that must be met for a person to be guilty of a mortal sin. If one requirement is not met, the person is guilty of a venial sin.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1802174' date='Mar 9 2009, 11:00 PM']This is how I've always understood it. Though repeated venial sins can lead to mortal sin. Like repeated swearing, knowing its wrong and doing it anyways, may lead to a graver sin - I dunno maybe something like blasphemy or maybe a denial that it is even a sin. Maybe lead to some anger or something?[/quote]

Yes, this is actually in the Catechism - while venial sins do not ADD UP to a mortal sin they certainly do LEAD; they make us more susceptible to temptation.

Edited March 10, 2009 by HisChildForever

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1802166' date='Mar 9 2009, 11:53 PM']Oh get over yourself, just once, that's all I ask.[/quote]

Have you two set a date? Are we all invited? I haven't been to a Catholic wedding in so long!

[rkwright]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1802188' date='Mar 9 2009, 10:08 PM']Yes, this is actually in the Catechism - while venial sins do not ADD UP to a mortal sin they certainly do LEAD; they make us more susceptible to temptation.[/quote]

Yea... I was having a hard time thinking of a scenario where repeated swearing could lead to something that is a grave matter... maybe thats a good thing?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1802191' date='Mar 9 2009, 11:10 PM']Yea... I was having a hard time thinking of a scenario where repeated swearing could lead to something that is a grave matter... maybe thats a good thing?[/quote]

Yes.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1802190' date='Mar 9 2009, 11:10 PM']Have you two set a date? Are we all invited? I haven't been to a Catholic wedding in so long![/quote]

Well, at least you're seeking the [i]good[/i] kind of attention, I suppose.

[Hassan]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1802190' date='Mar 9 2009, 11:10 PM']Have you two set a date? Are we all invited? I haven't been to a Catholic wedding in so long![/quote]





I needed that

I was at an Episcopalian wedding on the beach not to long ago

I do have one question.

I remember reading that Ratzinger's Uncle did not assent to Vatican I. He was excommunicated and attended Mass but did not take the Eucharist. So with relaion to salvation what is the distinction between being excommunicated and being in mortal sin?

[LouisvilleFan]

I voted "No" to both questions, but after reading through the thread, now I vote "Yes" to both. I was thinking of grave sin as being a sin of grave matter, regardless of whether it's committed with full knowledge and consent, but now I see the distinction.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1802199' date='Mar 10 2009, 12:14 AM']I remember reading that Ratzinger's Uncle did not assent to Vatican I. He was excommunicated and attended Mass but did not take the Eucharist. So with relaion to salvation what is the distinction between being excommunicated and being in mortal sin?[/quote]

Seems that would depend on the reason for being excommunicated. I doubt one's failure to assent to Vatican I constitutes grave matter, whereas committing or contributing to an abortion definitely is. But I'll defer to those more knowledgeable than I.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1802206' date='Mar 9 2009, 11:17 PM']Seems that would depend on the reason for being excommunicated. I doubt one's failure to assent to Vatican I constitutes grave matter, whereas committing or contributing to an abortion definitely is. But I'll defer to those more knowledgeable than I.[/quote]

Are you joking? Obstinate denial of any dogma (otherwise known as [b]heresy[/b]) most certainly constitutes a grave sin. And yes, Vatican I defined dogma.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Resurrexi