Illegal Immigration, What Do You Think As A Catholic?.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1804222' date='Mar 11 2009, 10:31 PM']There's that good Christian mercy


Anyway, to the OP. Any nation has a right to control their borders, however obstinant legalism does not help. We need to figure out a solution which is both mercyful and mutually beneficial to America and the Mexicans who's labour we need.[/quote]


We DON'T need their labor. I'm sick of this leftist, PC rhetoric that is standard fare for liberals and socialists. We are in a recession with millions of Americans out of work and you're telling me we NEED foreigners to come here and do our jobs for us? Nonsense! American companies and business owners need to pay fare wages for Americans to do these jobs and stop leaning on cheap Mexican labor.

If Obama and his team really wanted to make jobs for Americans, he would stop the millions of jobs that are outsourced to foreign labor and give those jobs back to Americans who were doing them in the first place.

This is an issue of basic justice. But you, with your 20 years of life and 2 years of college, thinking you know EVERYTHING, would make a swipe about "Christian charity" while supporting Americans being robbed of jobs.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Madame Vengier

[puellapaschalis]

I don't know if this is the case in the USA, but in at least some European countries immigrants are able to move here and get jobs because the "natives" think those jobs beneath their dignity. Filipino (etc) ladies aren't too proud to get on and clean a sick person's mess.

Wouldn't say it would excuse them from not having a proper visa, though.

However, back on-topic.

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='ruso' post='1804139' date='Mar 11 2009, 09:46 PM']What prospects think from a Catholic?, ALL bishops of USA, from Burke to Mahoney, support this:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQT7BtKnUBI&feature=channel_page"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQT7BtKnUBI...re=channel_page[/url][/quote]


US immigration laws are unjust. They award visas and citizinship based on a points system. You gets points for higher education, for speaking english, and for income among other things. The laws discrimate against people who have not had the opportunity (ultimately the money) to access education.

My church is largely hispanic and I have many brothers and sisters in Christ who are here illegally. One of the last things they want to be is a criminal. I say ONE of the last things because they all were escaping hunger, extreme poverty, disease, and even civil war when they came here illegally.

While breaking the law is wrong, we should all be ashamed for allowing our government to discriminate against "the least of us." Shame on us for allowing living conditions to exist in this world that cause people to flee fromt he land and people that they know and love. How dare any of us condem someone who only wants a fair shot at life.

I completely agree that we need to know who is in the United States for decurity reasons. That is why comprehensive immigration reform is necessary so that honest, hard working people who want to come contribute to our society will always be welcome here. Then, I will be able to condemn these "illegals" for only the shady characters will cross the border in the cover of night since they have too much to hide to do so leagally.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1804646' date='Mar 12 2009, 06:19 AM']We DON'T need their labor. I'm sick of this leftist, PC rhetoric that is standard fare for liberals and socialists. We are in a recession with millions of Americans out of work and you're telling me we NEED foreigners to come here and do our jobs for us? Nonsense! American companies and business owners need to pay fare wages for Americans to do these jobs and stop leaning on cheap Mexican labor.

If Obama and his team really wanted to make jobs for Americans, he would stop the millions of jobs that are outsourced to foreign labor and give those jobs back to Americans who were doing them in the first place.

This is an issue of basic justice. But you, with your 20 years of life and 2 years of college, thinking you know EVERYTHING, would make a swipe about "Christian charity" while supporting Americans being robbed of jobs.[/quote]

Of my nieces and nephews who aren't still in school, only the stay at home mom hasn't lost her job. My other niece is a beautician and her dad helped her open her own shop when she lost her job. My nephews are still out of work. So I am very much re-evaluating some things that I had always taken as a given when it came to "jobs Americans won't do."

[FiereMargriet]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1804230' date='Mar 11 2009, 10:33 PM']I believe people should follow the law. But I also believe that illegal immigration is a complex social problem, and should not be dealt with by merciless deportation. How should it be dealt with? That's a complex question, and I don't think there is an easy answer.[/quote]

I agree. I work with a good number of wonderful people who are immigrants, and there is a huge immigrant population around my town. No, I'm not well-versed on immigration laws, nor do I have a solution to offer. But the resurgent racism I've heard people espousing because of the influx of immigrants disgusts me. I know racism is a different thing from wanting to expel illegal immigrants, but as a Catholic I believe we should be merciful and understanding of our brothers and sisters who wanted to come to America as a result of less-than-ideal circumstances in their home countries.

[homeschoolmom]

In an ideal world:

1. Mexico, Central America and other places would have governments that cared for their people so that they would not feel the need to flee to the US in droves (legally or otherwise).

2. The US would have better knowledge of who comes here and why.

3. Immigration laws would be more just. More people would be allowed to come here legally. Only those who come here with bad motives would be coming illegally.

4. There would be private charities with volunteers willing to offer English language classes, job training and teach skills of every day living (how to use a laundromat, for example).

But that's in an ideal world...

[goldbug16]

I don't approve of illegal immigration. My uncle works as a border patrol agent in the California/Mexico border, and 98% of the people that come across are gang members and drug dealers. He get's beaten up by these guys just about every week. And because of the "no gun firing" rules, he can't even protect himself.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1804646' date='Mar 12 2009, 06:19 AM']We DON'T need their labor. I'm sick of this leftist, PC rhetoric that is standard fare for liberals and socialists. We are in a recession with millions of Americans out of work and you're telling me we NEED foreigners to come here and do our jobs for us? Nonsense! American companies and business owners need to pay fare wages for Americans to do these jobs and stop leaning on cheap Mexican labor.

If Obama and his team really wanted to make jobs for Americans, he would stop the millions of jobs that are outsourced to foreign labor and give those jobs back to Americans who were doing them in the first place.

This is an issue of basic justice. But you, with your 20 years of life and 2 years of college, thinking you know EVERYTHING, would make a swipe about "Christian charity" while supporting Americans being robbed of jobs.[/quote]

I'm sorry, is that too me?

I mean you've quoted me but obviously that's not enough to tell.


btw, apparently the Michael Jackson thread got moved. Yes, Madam V, I know about the phrase "denial ain't just a river" I was indeed "joking".

Edited March 12, 2009 by Hassan

[HisChildForever]

I agree with what Madame V and Catherine said regarding "lower class" jobs - a lot of Americans who have been out of work for some time are desperate for at [i]least[/i] something temporary, like a part-time retail position or cleaning crew (for hotels). I believe that when summer comes around, it is going to be super hard for college students (undergrad [u]and[/u] grad) to find a summer job because overqualified individuals will be competing again them. And the high school students, forget about them. If lucky they would get [i]half[/i] a part-time position, like weekend help.

[quote name='Hassan' post='1804805' date='Mar 12 2009, 01:12 PM']btw, apparently the Michael Jackson thread got moved. Yes, Madam V, I know about the phrase "denial ain't just a river" I was indeed "joking".[/quote]

Oh, okay. So you had every right to throw a fit when I made a crack about an old thread, but yet you can go around tossing flashbacks whenever you please.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1804827' date='Mar 12 2009, 12:25 PM']Oh, okay. So you had every right to throw a fit when I made a crack about an old thread, but yet you can go around tossing flashbacks whenever you please. [/quote]

I didn't mind you bringing up an old issue, as I said (what I did mind) I did not want that to turn into your forever cop put everytime I think you advocate something morally wrong. If you had a problem with my position I wanted to get it cleared up, as you apparently continually did not understand what I was trying to say (probably my fauly), so it did not become a regular thing of "excuse me? What about your claim x" everytime we argued.

Apparently Madam V did not, how I do not know, understand that I was joking about being confused between "denial" and "The Nile". The thread where I made it clear that saying "really? Because I honestly don't know how to lay it on any thicker" was my way of saying "for the love of god, yes, I am joking" got deleted and I'm not sure she saw it. Now I have let her know, if she wants it will never be brought up again.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1804827' date='Mar 12 2009, 12:25 PM']I agree with what Madame V and Catherine said regarding "lower class" jobs - a lot of Americans who have been out of work for some time are desperate for at [i]least[/i] something temporary, like a part-time retail position or cleaning crew (for hotels). I believe that when summer comes around, it is going to be super hard for college students (undergrad [u]and[/u] grad) to find a summer job because overqualified individuals will be competing again them. And the high school students, forget about them. If lucky they would get [i]half[/i] a part-time position, like weekend help[/quote]


I can understand that. Before the exonomy collapsed we did, for a long time, implicitly send the signal that we wanted their labor. Yes often this was because the money wanted cheep labor. Now, after they have come, settled down, and made a life some say they would uproot them and send them packing, no exceptions and no questions, and not feel the least bit of guilt, I find that disturbing.

I understand this position, but there is no reason to divorce mercy from the discussion.

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='goldbug16' post='1804775' date='Mar 12 2009, 01:48 PM']I don't approve of illegal immigration. My uncle works as a border patrol agent in the California/Mexico border, and 98% of the people that come across are gang members and drug dealers. He get's beaten up by these guys just about every week. And because of the "no gun firing" rules, he can't even protect himself.[/quote]

I must know the entire 2% that have come here to make a better life for themselves.

[Hassan]

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1804866' date='Mar 12 2009, 01:59 PM']I must know the entire 2% that have come here to make a better life for themselves.[/quote]


yeah....

I'm sorry but that figure is absurd.

If 98% of 12 million people were drung dealers or gang bangers we would have a serious problem, much bigger than the one we actually do have.

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1804771' date='Mar 12 2009, 01:44 PM']In an ideal world:

1. Mexico, Central America and other places would have governments that cared for their people so that they would not feel the need to flee to the US in droves (legally or otherwise).

2. The US would have better knowledge of who comes here and why.

3. Immigration laws would be more just. More people would be allowed to come here legally. Only those who come here with bad motives would be coming illegally.

4. There would be private charities with volunteers willing to offer English language classes, job training and teach skills of every day living (how to use a laundromat, for example).

But that's in an ideal world...[/quote]

Yes! My parish is actually working towards all of these goals.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1804827' date='Mar 12 2009, 01:25 PM']Oh, okay. So you had every right to throw a fit when I made a crack about an old thread, but yet you can go around tossing flashbacks whenever you please. [/quote]


[quote name='Hassan' post='1804836' date='Mar 12 2009, 01:34 PM']I didn't mind you bringing up an old issue, as I said (what I did mind) I did not want that to turn into your forever cop put everytime I think you advocate something morally wrong. If you had a problem with my position I wanted to get it cleared up, as you apparently continually did not understand what I was trying to say (probably my fauly), so it did not become a regular thing of "excuse me? What about your claim x" everytime we argued.

Apparently Madam V did not, how I do not know, understand that I was joking about being confused between "denial" and "The Nile". The thread where I made it clear that saying "really? Because I honestly don't know how to lay it on any thicker" was my way of saying "for the love of god, yes, I am joking" got deleted and I'm not sure she saw it. Now I have let her know, if she wants it will never be brought up again.[/quote]


Taking off my mod hat here for a moment to address you two as a "regular" poster...

Could you two please take your never-ending arguments to private messages? Please?