Pro-choicers Deny Doctors Right To Choose Life

[TotusTuusMaria]

So... now any other reasons why making all doctors (including Catholic ones) perform abortions?

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1808202' date='Mar 16 2009, 12:39 AM']Actually there are plenty of Muslim scholars who say such an operation is accectable if the goal is to save a human life. I don't care, for the purpose of this discussion, about the general agreement of religious authorities for religion x with regards to issue y. I am concerned with doctors who believe action y is contrary to his religious faith or moral principals, rightly or wrongly, and to what extent their personal aversion allows them to circumvent their regular duties as doctors. I don't care what a Rabbi or a Cleric would say, if a Jewish doctor, incorrectly or correctly, believes that action x is contrary to his religion to what extent should he be allowed to exempt skirt his medical duties?[/quote]

He should be allowed to be exempt from any "medical duties" (abortion is not a "medical duty") that do not violate the oath he has taken to respect and care for life.

No doctor has to perform an abortion ever. They do, however there are other ways to solve the issue of a "ectopic pregnancy"

[Hassan]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1808195' date='Mar 15 2009, 11:28 PM']Hassan do you even genuinely care why cmom holds the views she does? Why?[/quote]


Yes, because I'm curious

[quote]It does kind of look like you are arguing for the sake of arguing. And you still haven't responded to HCF, MV, and another posts about the two being totally different things.[/quote]

I personally agree that a blood transfusion is not nearly of the same magnitude as an abortion. The issue isin't about any particular act though. I am trying to come to a theoretical understanding of to what extent a doctor should be allowed to adjust their medical duties in accord with their personal beliefs and then seeing how this case fits into that situation.


[quote]You just keep telling them they don't "know you." Well ok, but if you were really interested in the discussion and not anything else (like you try to say you are) then why aren't you keeping to the discussion and just ignoring their comments that are about you?[/quote]

I suppose I get annoyed when individuals, incorrectly, tell me what my views are and imply I am lying about my motives.

[quote]Why don't you answer their legitimate replies.[/quote]


Which do you consider those to be?

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1808208' date='Mar 16 2009, 12:44 AM']You don't need to tell me that you don't care. I can see that you don't care. I have seen that for months, that you don't care about getting information correct about anyone's religious beliefs except those of Muslims. Muslims' beliefs you will defend and explain to high heavens. But when it comes to Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, and others you "don't care" that you are passing on false and misleading information about their beliefs and faith practices.[/quote]

I think this is false.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1808211' date='Mar 16 2009, 12:45 AM']I think this is false.[/quote]


Am I supposed to respond to this?

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1808209' date='Mar 16 2009, 12:44 AM']Yes, because I'm curious[/quote]



[quote]I personally agree that a blood transfusion is not nearly of the same magnitude as an abortion. The issue isin't about any particular act though. I am trying to come to a theoretical understanding of to what extent a doctor should be allowed to adjust their medical duties in accord with their personal beliefs and then seeing how this case fits into that situation.[/quote]

[b]Alright then. Thank you for saying that. [u]I believe we are all now on the same page and in agreement that a blood fusion is not nearly of the same magnitude as an abortion. [/u]Why didn't you just say that when they asked you? That is what they wanted to hear. [/b]

My response to the second part is that they should be allowed to so long as it does not violate the oath they have taken to protect and try to save ALL life. It is a fundamental right that should never, under any circumstance, be violated.

[quote]I suppose I get annoyed when individuals, incorrectly, tell me what my views are and imply I am lying about my motives.[/quote]

Yeah, but if your true intention is to keep on topic and have a discussion about the subject then why let these things in? I know if I am serious about something I don't let anything side-track me... especially not someone giving out personal attacks. It is ALWAYS a means to divert the conversation. You know that, but yet you bite.


[quote]Which do you consider those to be?[/quote]

you answered them right before i posted. i take back what i said in this regard.

Edited March 16, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1808187' date='Mar 16 2009, 12:11 AM']Sure Madam V. Just like "Of course" I'm actually a Muslims, don't have Jewish family, and was never a Catholic. I guess you figure if you make enough baseless conjectures about my hidden motives, beliefs, and intentions you'll actually be right every now and again. Unfortunatly, as so often in the past, you are incorrect. I have laid out my tatics and motives in very clear terms and even provided rational for them. I don't know if you and Erin consider obstinance a virtue or what exactly the reason that you two must discern some hidden motive either way it's just a bit sad.[/quote]

Nothing about your argument is rational, Hassan. Nothing. Furthermore, I already stated that you have no HIDDEN motive. It is very straightforward. Your posts here and in other [debate] threads follow a very typical pattern, and this pattern rotates around argument for the sake of argument. You are currently trying to make Madame V and myself look like idiots but the choppy English and these posts of yours simply suggests otherwise.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1808213' date='Mar 16 2009, 12:48 AM']Am I supposed to respond to this?[/quote]

I don't care if you do or don't.

I was just pointing out for the entire thread that I don't agree with that statement, mostly to Hassan. As I agreed with you on something else, I don't want him to be under the impression that I agree with everything you are saying, especially about him. You and HCF constantly say "hey don't say that about her" in other threads. I am saying it now about Hassan. Sometimes you guys say stuff about him that is just not true. What you wrote is just not true. He has shown himself to have, for the most part, the same hesitancy with all belief systems, including those stated. I don't think he is just out to get "the Catholics."

Edited March 16, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria

[Hassan]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1808216' date='Mar 15 2009, 11:51 PM'][/quote]

It's true.


[quote][b]Alright then. Thank you for saying that. [u]I believe we are all now on the same page and in agreement that a blood fusion is not nearly of the same magnitude as an abortion. [/u]Why didn't you just say that when they asked you? That is what they wanted to hear. [/b][/quote]

I did.

[i]
I wasn't trying to craft an analogy. I wanted to get some idea of what she considered appropiate with regards to doctors dispensing medical treatment in accords with their personal moral beliefs. If she would force a doctor to give a blood transfusion to save a life then she does not consider a doctors personal morals sacrosanct with regards to molding their professional activities. From there we could do a dialectic until we arrive at a close understanding of what her position actually is and then see how it relates to this case.[/i]


I was not crafting an analogy, I was never trying to claim that a rational person could claim a blood transfusion was of the same order of magnitude as an abortion. I have been saying I was never suggusting that was an analogy for an abortion for four pages now. If people do not want to believe me that is their decision.

[quote]My response to the second part is that they should be allowed to so long as it does not violate the oath they have taken to protect and try to save ALL life.[/quote]

So you would force the doctor to perform the transfusion to save the individuals life?



[quote]Yeah, but if your true intention is to keep on topic and have a discussion about the subject then why let these things in? I know if I am serious about something I don't let anything side-track me... especially not someone giving out personal attacks. It is ALWAYS a means to divert the conversation. You know that, but yet you bite.[/quote]

I don't know. I suppose Kafka was correct and I lack discipline

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1808218' date='Mar 15 2009, 11:54 PM']Nothing about your argument is rational, Hassan. Nothing.[/quote]

How? What is my argument?

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1808223' date='Mar 16 2009, 12:59 AM']It's true.[/quote]

Yeah, but its lame. Get into a whole argument over this because "you are curious."

You gotta pick your battles. Your reason for this battle is lame... no other excuses.

[quote]I did.

[i]
I wasn't trying to craft an analogy. I wanted to get some idea of what she considered appropiate with regards to doctors dispensing medical treatment in accords with their personal moral beliefs. If she would force a doctor to give a blood transfusion to save a life then she does not consider a doctors personal morals sacrosanct with regards to molding their professional activities. From there we could do a dialectic until we arrive at a close understanding of what her position actually is and then see how it relates to this case.[/i]


I was not crafting an analogy, I was never trying to claim that a rational person could claim a blood transfusion was of the same order of magnitude as an abortion. I have been saying I was never suggusting that was an analogy for an abortion for four pages now. If people do not want to believe me that is their decision.[/quote]

Saying "I was not crafting an analogy" and "yeah, they are totally different" things hit people different ways. You never really said, "Yeah, they are different... I wasn't trying to make the point that they weren't though." You just defended that you weren't trying to craft an analogy... anyway... you never really came out and said it. You took a round-about way of saying it. Why didn't you just say it: yeah, your right. they are different.

[quote]So you would force the doctor to perform the transfusion to save the individuals life?[/quote]

Possibly... is a blood transfusion always needed to save the life?

If there belief contradicts the oath they took then that is on their shoulders. By becoming a doctor and taking that oath then they have to stick to it if they intend to be a doctor, as that is what is required to be one.

[quote]I don't know. I suppose Kafka was correct and I lack discipline[/quote]

yeah, for the sake of the thread and a lot of people's feelings, possibly you should work on that.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1808228' date='Mar 16 2009, 01:04 AM']I'm shocked that you actually think so hard about the consquences of agreeing with me on the topic of abortion, that you would actually be sitting there concerned about what others think of you and what conclusions they will draw by you agreeing with me (on anything at all). How sad that this was of such great import that you HAD to turn around and find something to criticize about me to counteract having agreed with me three posts above. This is really outrageous. For the future, don't bother making comments like "I agree with MV on this" since the consequences of doing so are such a problem for you.

To clarify in general, Hassan made TWO inaccurate statements on this thread about the beliefs of two different groups. When this was pointed out to him he responded that he didn't care (in the context of this discussion). So don't lecture me. Hassan himself admitted to not caring.

And I never once said he was out to get Catholics. Don't attribute to me things I didn't say.[/quote]

Like I said, [u]I don't care[/u] if you do or don't.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1808227' date='Mar 16 2009, 01:04 AM']How? What is my argument?[/quote]

My point exactly.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1808237' date='Mar 16 2009, 12:12 AM']My point exactly.[/quote]


I never claimed to have an argument HCF. I do not, my only intention, you and MV's speculation aside, was to ask a simple question which I felt might help the discussion be interesting.