The Lord's Brother - One Of The Twelve?

[Servant of the Secret Fire]

Question for discussion: is James the brother of the Lord the same person as James the son of Alphaeus, one of the Twelve?

I don't want this to be a debate about whether or not James (and the other brothers and sisters of Jesus) are children of the Blessed Virgin Mary - that question is settled, but the question of who exactly some of the minor characters of the New Testament are is wide open, and somewhat important in convincing people that the perpetual virginity of Mary is not a mistake that disproves the infallibility of the Magisterium.

I'll put in my 2 cents later.

[Madame Vengier]

My understanding from scholars of the original Hebrew text is that in Hebrew the word for cousins and brothers is the same. Not sure if this is true or if I'm even relaying it correctly. But Our Lord had no fleshly brothers or sisters, as his mother was a virgin before and after his birth, so this can't mean a literal blood brother.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Servant of the Secret Fire' post='1808930' date='Mar 16 2009, 04:45 PM']Question for discussion: is James the brother of the Lord the same person as James the son of Alphaeus, one of the Twelve?

I don't want this to be a debate about whether or not James (and the other brothers and sisters of Jesus) are children of the Blessed Virgin Mary - that question is settled, but the question of who exactly some of the minor characters of the New Testament are is wide open, and somewhat important in convincing people that the perpetual virginity of Mary is not a mistake that disproves the infallibility of the Magisterium.

I'll put in my 2 cents later.[/quote]

I've read both opinions. I was taught by a professor that he was not the James of the twelve. Seems far from settled.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Servant of the Secret Fire' post='1808930' date='Mar 16 2009, 08:45 PM']Question for discussion: is James the brother of the Lord the same person as James the son of Alphaeus, one of the Twelve?

I don't want this to be a debate about whether or not James (and the other brothers and sisters of Jesus) are children of the Blessed Virgin Mary - that question is settled, but the question of who exactly some of the minor characters of the New Testament are is wide open, and somewhat important in convincing people that the perpetual virginity of Mary is not a mistake that disproves the infallibility of the Magisterium.[/quote]
I had thought traditionally James the Just and James the son of Alphaeus were equated as one, but I don't know all the arguments around that. The[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08280a.htm"] Catholic Encyclopaedia[/url] seems to hold that view, as well, for what it's worth.

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1808995' date='Mar 16 2009, 09:35 PM']My understanding from scholars of the original Hebrew text is that in Hebrew the word for cousins and brothers is the same. Not sure if this is true or if I'm even relaying it correctly. But Our Lord had no fleshly brothers or sisters, as his mother was a virgin before and after his birth, so this can't mean a literal blood brother.[/quote]
Pretty much correct. There isn't an actual word for "cousin" in Hebrew, so the word for "brother" (or "sister") is used instead.

[IrishSalesian]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1808995' date='Mar 16 2009, 06:35 PM']My understanding from scholars of the original Hebrew text is that in Hebrew the word for cousins and brothers is the same.[/quote]

I agree with Madame V. My understanding is also that in the original text the word for cousin is the same as brother in the Hebrew text.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='IrishSalesian' post='1809706' date='Mar 17 2009, 02:29 PM']I agree with Madame V. My understanding is also that in the original text the word for cousin is the same as brother in the Hebrew text.[/quote]
There isn't a word for cousin, so "brother" is used for any male relative. I think Lot is also called Abraham's brother, even though the text then elaborates that Lot is the son of Abraham's brother or sister.

[Servant of the Secret Fire]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1809800' date='Mar 17 2009, 06:12 PM']There isn't a word for cousin, so "brother" is used for any male relative. I think Lot is also called Abraham's brother, even though the text then elaborates that Lot is the son of Abraham's brother or sister.[/quote]

Sorry, should have made myself clearer, I was simply using "brother" since that is how it is generally translated and, properly understood, covers both the "cousin" theory and the "step-brother" (children of Joseph by previous marriage) theory, whichever you prefer.

(On a side note, a question for anyone with knowledge of the original languages of Scripture I have read that Greek (unlike Hebrew) does have a word for cousin, and even more significantly it is used by Luke to denote Mary's relationship to Elizabeth - is this the case and if so, do you think this impacts on the cousin theory?)

On the main topic - thanks for the Encyclopedia link, for some reason I didn't think to look at it when I was googling this the other day. The argument in favour of the identity of the brother of the Lord and the son of Alphaeus seems to depend heavily on Paul's statement: "But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother." Galations 1:19. I wonder though if the argument is really that strong. Paul is counted as an Apostle because of the appearance of the risen Christ to him, and we know from Paul that the Jesus appeared to James after the Resurrection ("Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles." 1 Corinthians 15:7) and therefore it seems dubious to me to assert that "apostles" in Galations refers only to the twelve. (Indeed just two verses before the above Corinthians verse, Paul uses the phrase the twelve "and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve." 1 Cor 15:5)

Edited March 17, 2009 by Servant of the Secret Fire

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Servant of the Secret Fire' post='1809898' date='Mar 17 2009, 07:01 PM']Sorry, should have made myself clearer, I was simply using "brother" since that is how it is generally translated and, properly understood, covers both the "cousin" theory and the "step-brother" (children of Joseph by previous marriage) theory, whichever you prefer.

(On a side note, a question for anyone with knowledge of the original languages of Scripture I have read that Greek (unlike Hebrew) does have a word for cousin, and even more significantly it is used by Luke to denote Mary's relationship to Elizabeth - is this the case and if so, do you think this impacts on the cousin theory?)[/quote]
Well, the Septuagint also uses the word "brother" (even though they have a word for cousin, and nephew) for the relationship between Abraham and Lot, though it was an uncle-nephew relationship, so I don't think that would necessarily debunk the cousin theory.

[quote]On the main topic - thanks for the Encyclopedia link, for some reason I didn't think to look at it when I was googling this the other day. The argument in favour of the identity of the brother of the Lord and the son of Alphaeus seems to depend heavily on Paul's statement: "But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother." Galations 1:19. I wonder though if the argument is really that strong. Paul is counted as an Apostle because of the appearance of the risen Christ to him, and we know from Paul that the Jesus appeared to James after the Resurrection ("Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles." 1 Corinthians 15:7) and therefore it seems dubious to me to assert that "apostles" in Galations refers only to the twelve. (Indeed just two verses before the above Corinthians verse, Paul uses the phrase the twelve "and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve." 1 Cor 15:5)[/quote]
No problem. I'll have to examine their argument more, since I haven't read it in-depth yet.

[Archaeology cat]

Right, don't know why I didn't do this earlier (must have gotten distracted), but I just looked up "adelphos" in an [url="http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=80"]online Greek lexicon. [/url] These are the definitions listed:
[quote]1. a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
2. having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3. any fellow or man
4. a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
5. an associate in employment or office
6. brethren in Christ
1. his brothers by blood
2. all men
3. apostles
4. Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place[/quote]

So if [i]adelphos [/i]is used to denote all of those things, then it hardly seems conclusive to say it must mean brothers from the same mother.

ETA: Those definitions are from Strong's Concordance.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Archaeology cat

[Madame Vengier]

I suppose all this begs the question, Why do English translations use the word "brother" given all the evidence that the real word used is not "brother" at all? I mean, why not just use "cousin"? All this has done has been to cause confusion and to give more fuel to the fire for protestant theology to reject the Perpetual Virginity of the Mother of Christ.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1810190' date='Mar 17 2009, 07:23 PM']I suppose all this begs the question, Why do English translations use the word "brother" given all the evidence that the real word used is not "brother" at all? I mean, why not just use "cousin"? All this has done has been to cause confusion and to give more fuel to the fire for protestant theology to reject the Perpetual Virginity of the Mother of Christ.[/quote]

Because the first widely circulated English version was Protestant.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1810190' date='Mar 18 2009, 12:23 AM']I suppose all this begs the question, Why do English translations use the word "brother" given all the evidence that the real word used is not "brother" at all? I mean, why not just use "cousin"? All this has done has been to cause confusion and to give more fuel to the fire for protestant theology to reject the Perpetual Virginity of the Mother of Christ.[/quote]
That's what I'm thinking. I mean, I had always heard that [i]adelphos [/i]always meant "from the same womb" when people were arguing against Mary's perpetual virginity and such, but since Strong's Concordance (definitely a Protestant source) even gives all these other definitions, it really shouldn't be an argument at all. They could even just use the word "kinsman" and that would work.

ETA: I'd love to hear from someone who knows Koine, though.

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1810221' date='Mar 18 2009, 01:37 AM']Because the first widely circulated English version was Protestant.[/quote]
Good point.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Archaeology cat

[Archaeology cat]

Oh, and one more thing, the people referring to Jesus' "brothers" would have been speaking Aramaic, right? Which, like Hebrew, uses "brother" to denote any male relative. It's quite common to keep using the terminology of your mother tongue when writing in another language, even if that language has more specific ways of denoting relationships or such things.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1810221' date='Mar 17 2009, 09:37 PM']Because the first widely circulated English version was Protestant.[/quote]

That doesn't explain why Catholic bibles continued with the error.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1810459' date='Mar 18 2009, 03:01 AM']That's what I'm thinking. I mean, I had always heard that [i]adelphos [/i]always meant "from the same womb" when people were arguing against Mary's perpetual virginity and such, but since Strong's Concordance (definitely a Protestant source) even gives all these other definitions, it really shouldn't be an argument at all. They could even just use the word "kinsman" and that would work.

ETA: I'd love to hear from someone who knows Koine, though.


Good point.[/quote]


My grandfather does. If I remember I'll ask him next time I speak to him.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1810469' date='Mar 18 2009, 12:30 PM']My grandfather does. If I remember I'll ask him next time I speak to him.[/quote]
Thanks! I have a couple of friends who know it, so I'll have to ask them, too, when I get a chance. Let me know what your grandfather says, though, please.

[thessalonian]

[quote](On a side note, a question for anyone with knowledge of the original languages of Scripture I have read that Greek (unlike Hebrew) does have a word for cousin, and even more significantly it is used by Luke to denote Mary's relationship to Elizabeth - is this the case and if so, do you think this impacts on the cousin theory?)"[/quote]

First of all the Church does not specify that those named as Jesus "brothers" were cousins. Further it seems likely to me that those named in Matt 13 (Mark 6) as Jesus brothers, James, Joses, Simon, Jude perhaps are of multiple relationships. James and Jude in John 19 are mentioned as being son's of another Mary. This Mary is said to be, "Mary's Sister", which would make them cousins. But Simon and Jude seem to be of another relationship that we cannot assess from the text.

[thessalonian]

This might help in this discussion. I wrote it a while back and it's in the defense directory, called "keeping track of the mary's"


[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=52652&hl=track"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...52&hl=track[/url]

We are always told that the following passages tell us that Mary had other children.

Matt.13
[55] Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? Matt.27


Mark.6
[3] Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

Matt.27
[56] among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zeb'edee.

The guy I am debating with had an article that said the Mary in Matt 27 was Jesus mother. blink.gif

I did a little analysis beyond the usual indicating that this James and Joses/Joseph are likely sons of a Mary who is at the cross because an article posted on another board said that this Mary at the cross was Mary the mother of Jesus. Here it is. Hope it helps.

Consider these passages.

Matt.27
[56] among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zeb'edee.
[61] Mary Mag'dalene and the other Mary were there, sitting opposite the sepulchre.

Matt.28
[1] Now after the sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Mag'dalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulchre.

Mark.16
[1] And when the sabbath was past, Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salo'me, bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.
[9] Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.

Mark.15
[40] There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salo'me,
[47] Mary Mag'dalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid.

John 19
[25]
So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag'dalene.
[26] When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"
[27] Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.
[28]

Luke 24
[10] Now it was Mary Mag'dalene and Jo-an'na and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told this to the apostles;


Okay, we have this Mary who is the mother of James in Mark 16 and Luke 24. We have "the other mary" and Mary the mother of Joses in Mark 15 and Matt 27, 28 respectively. Mary the mother of Joses and the other Mary are identified as being with Mary Magadalene when they watch where Jesus is laid. Mary the Mother of James is the Mary, with Mary Magadalen when they tell the apostles (luke 24) they have seen the Lord. Mark 15 has Mary Magdalene and Mary the Mother of James the younger (less) looking on from afar. In Mark 15 there is a Mary, looking on from afar who is Mary, mother of James and Joses. Hmmmm.

Seems almost dead certain that "the other Mary", Mary the mother of Joses, and Mary the Mother of James and Joses, and Mary the mother of James the younger (less) are all the same Mary. Note that not once are any of these Mary's identified as Mary the Mother of Jesus and in John 19 it is clear that we have another Mary (Mary wife of Clopas) with the group who is not the mother of Jesus. Further Mary the mother of Jesus is not mentioned in the passages where the women looked on from afar. Probably because she stayed right with the body. Or perhaps seeing her son to distraught it is not surprizing that she might have been taken away by the others. Perhaps John, who's care she was entrusted to and who was not at the tomb with the other two Mary's.

One more point. In John 19 it indicates that John and Mary are near the cross and likely the other women, who are together, are a bit further off. This is consistent with the separation shown in the other two Gospels and again indicates that Mary, mother of James and Joses and Mary the wife of Clopas are the same woman.

I do hope you follow all that. I think your author blew this one bad. As do many other authors who have to prove Mary had other children. Now I am not claiming to prove otherwise, just showing the bias they display in their "exegesis".


Blessings

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1810190' date='Mar 17 2009, 08:23 PM']I suppose all this begs the question, Why do English translations use the word "brother" given all the evidence that the real word used is not "brother" at all? I mean, why not just use "cousin"? All this has done has been to cause confusion and to give more fuel to the fire for protestant theology to reject the Perpetual Virginity of the Mother of Christ.[/quote]

Read my posts above. Likely those whom were called brothers were of multiple relationships. Not just cousins. Likely those of the Mary who was likely Jesus's mother's "sister" was actually a cousin of Mary (iin some translations). If she was a blood sister then we have the issue of there being two girls in the family with the same first name. Rather odd don't you think. This would make James and Joses second cousins I believe, not first cousins. Simon and Jude seem to be of a different relationship. orthodox tradition has it that Jesus had some step brothers form Joseph. Likely when the bibles were written and translated the exact relationships were not known as well. Thus one word does not fit all except the broad usage of "brother".

[Archaeology cat]

Thanks, thes!