Dave Posted August 19, 2003 Posted August 19, 2003 You can get mad all you want, Sean, but being mad won't change the truth.
mulls Posted August 19, 2003 Posted August 19, 2003 fine. so you must agree that since i don't belong to your church, i do not love Christ and have not changed my life for Christ.
Dave Posted August 19, 2003 Posted August 19, 2003 fine. so you must agree that since i don't belong to your church, i do not love Christ and have not changed my life for Christ. We don't question the love for God of those who remain non-Catholic out of invincible ignorance. However, mulls, you belonged to the Catholic Church and then left it. There was no need for you to leave the Church to change your life for Christ. None whatsoever. You may have thought God was guiding you to become part of another church, but He was doing no such thing. The Catholic Church contains the fullness of truth, and God is a God of truth. God DOES NOT and CANNOT lead ANYONE to do whatever is contrary to that truth. You left the Catholic Church due to your ignorance, feeling, and opinions. If you rely on those, you will ALWAYS be led astray. I can't see inside your heart to make a judgment as to whether or not you love Christ. However, if a person knows, or is at least in a position where they ought to know, that the Catholic Church teaches the whold truth, yet refuse to enter it, they're putting their feelings and opinions ABOVE God.
Dave Posted August 19, 2003 Posted August 19, 2003 Is that all you have to say? Just "ha"? And yet you don't try to refute what I say if you disagree?
mulls Posted August 19, 2003 Posted August 19, 2003 you don't know me or what i've been through, no matter how much i explained about myself. nothing productive will come out of arguing this any more. i guess i'm avoiding on of those 'near occasions of sin.'
Aloysius Posted August 19, 2003 Posted August 19, 2003 u posted a whole bunch, mulls, but u never argued with the papacy. that's because it's impossible. The papacy perfectly follows God's plan for the unity of His Church, and u cannot refute it. BOOYA! we win. become Catholic already! Pax Christi
ironmonk Posted August 20, 2003 Author Posted August 20, 2003 To know which Church that Christ built, we must look back to the 1st century. We must look with logic and fact. Not bigotry, ignorance, and emotion. If someone honestly thinks that the Catholic Church was NOT built by Christ, then they should not be Catholic... If someone knows that the Catholic Church was built by Christ and refuses to be in the Church, then they love themselves more than they love Christ... mulls, If the Catholic Church is not the one built by Christ, then which is? No other Christian church has been around for 2000 years. The Catholic Church gave us the Canon of the New Testament. If it wasn't for the Catholic Church, we would not have the NT. "We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all." ~ Martin Luther, Commentary on St. John Your posts on this thread do not address what the Church is and it being built on Peter... You are not proving the topic wrong... God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary, Pax Christi, Shalom, etc... ironmonk
mulls Posted August 21, 2003 Posted August 21, 2003 the topic got off track due to some scornful remarks. however i never did intend to contribute to this topic i just wanted to comment about how everybody is getting soooo excited because a non-Catholic had not replied yet. I asked whether it made a difference if somebody disproved it today or in the future.
Aloysius Posted August 21, 2003 Posted August 21, 2003 I asked whether it made a difference if somebody disproved it today or in the future. ~mulls disprove it today? not a chance. disprove it in the future? impossible. it's too true. no one has been able to disprove it for 2000 years, what makes u so confident? i think someone made a quote about somethin, but i don't know who or the exact words, my friend Leah once told it to me the jist of it is what's the point in makin all sorts of arguments n stuff? all of our ideas have already been thought before, granted our ideas arent on the scientific frontier, but then again, God at least has already come up with those ideas. anyway, become Catholic mulls. That way, you don't have to take the burden of disproving something that hasn't been disproven for TWO THOUSAND YEARS! "a day is as a thousand years for God" that's in the psalms somewhere right? so maybe u can take consulation in that. It hasn't been proven in 2 days anyway, Pax Christi!
mulls Posted August 21, 2003 Posted August 21, 2003 burden? i don't feel burdened by anything. do you think i'm on some sort of crusade to disprove Catholocism? well, i'm not. i'm trying to learn about it. if y'all want to try and convert me, that's fine, i know it's being done out of compassion. forget about what i said about disproving this thread. you misunderstood what i said (my fault) and i don't feel like explaining it over.
ironmonk Posted August 25, 2003 Author Posted August 25, 2003 Dust, Is there a way to tell the last time nothing logged in, like there was with the old message board? God Bless, ironmonk
ironmonk Posted August 28, 2003 Author Posted August 28, 2003 Bump for our new non-Catholic friends God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary, ironmonk www.MoralTruth.com A few resources for ya: www.ScriptureCatholic.com www.USCCB.org www.Catholic.com
MC Just Posted August 29, 2003 Posted August 29, 2003 The Papacy is not something that Roman Catholics made up. Anyone who believes that is extremely ignorant. The Papacy existed in the Jewish Law. Jesus just took that authority and gave it to Peter. In the Old law they needed a Prime Minister, someone to hold the Authority of the King, in the Old Law it was the Scribes and Pharisees under the Prime Minister. It was an office, just like in the Christian Papacy. read Isaiah 22:19-25, this is the same as the Pope's office in Rome. Eliakim was called "FAther to the inhabitants of Jerusalem" Father, in Latin is "Papa" Thats were the word "Pope" comes from. The Pope is a "Father to the inhabitants of the New Jerusalem" When he opens no one shall shut, when he shuts noone shall open. This type of Authority does not exist in Protestantism because they deny it and believe it was created by the Roman Church. But if you read the Old Testament you'll learn that the Papacy existed back then and it was just fullfilled When Jesus created his Church.
mustbenothing Posted August 29, 2003 Posted August 29, 2003 (Aloysius) all the non-Catholics now HAVE TO become Catholic. (Me) Considering that my arguments on Communion, Justification, Election, and the Scripture's authority were not answered, should I conclude that all the Catholics now have to become non-Catholic? (ironmonk) If the Catholic Church is not the one built by Christ, then which is? No other Christian church has been around for 2000 years. (Me) You're still committing that core fallacy of assuming that the fact that since the Roman Catholic Church of today has the same name as it did quite a while ago, and it shares a robust political connection with the true Church historically, that it must be equivalent to the Church that Christ built. However, if we say that the mark of a true Church is a place in which the Word and Sacrament are faithfully present, your entire argument falls. (ironmonk) The Catholic Church gave us the Canon of the New Testament. If it wasn't for the Catholic Church, we would not have the NT. "We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all." ~ Martin Luther, Commentary on St. John (Me) Yes, and we also received many of our Old Testament manuscripts through non-Christian Jews, and we also have atheistic archaelogists who dig up manuscripts. The fact that we got the Bible through the Roman Catholic Church does not mean that the Roman Catholic Church is identical to the Church that Christ built! (ironmonk) St. Matt 16:18 "And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (Kephas) I will build my church(Ekklesia), and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it." 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Those who say that the Church lost it's way are wrong. They say that the "Church" is the people within it... that is one definition, but not in this verse. Peter was the first Head Bishop (aka Pope). The Church was built on Peter by Christ. It will never be overcome. The Church of the New Covenant parallels the Church of the Old Covenant. A leading body of men are guided by God to teach men in Truth (1 Tim 3:15, St. Matt 18:17, St. John 14:16-18, St. Matt 5:13-15, St. Matt 28:18-20, St. Luke 10:16, Eph 4:1-6) The Church in St. Matt 16:18 is clearly in context to what was built on Peter... The hierarchy of the Church was built on Peter... Peter's successor carried Peter's authority... and does so today... Pope John Paul II, successor of Peter... The so called prot reformers left the Church to start their own churches based on their own personal beliefs. The Church was never overcome, and the Church that is spoken of in St. Matt. 16:18 is the Catholic Church. The Church built by Christ was not of lay people on Peter's shoulders, but it was the teaching authority that we have today... The Catholic Church; Pope; Bishops; Priests; Deacons.... The first bishops being the Apostles who were lead by Peter, just as Jesus told Peter to in St. John 21:15-17. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. The writings of the Early Church Fathers and history prove it. To say that the Church spoken of in St. Matt 16:!8 was the sheep and the "real" Church left, is a strawman that will blow away in the wind of Truth. For Ekklesia (Church) was clearly the teaching authority. As we see Jesus point out... (Me) You repeatedly seem to think that if there is ever a grave error within the Church at any point in time, that the gates of Hell have prevailed against her. The gates of Hell only prevailed if she is defeated -- not if she is injured or suffers. Other than that (which is an argument with which I have dealt on this forum at least 20 times), I see no argument above. I'm also fairly confused about many of the comments about the Church. Do you mean to say that you are not a member of the Church? If not, I really have no idea how the comments there ("The Church built by Christ was not of lay people on Peter's shoulders") are at all relevant to Protestantism. (ironmonk) St Matt 18:17 (Jesus said) If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church(Ekklesia), then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. It's obvious that Jesus is not talking about bringing the worldwide Church of sheep together to settle an argument... Jesus is clearly speaking of the teaching authority that He gave to the Catholic Church. To say that the Catholic Church was the Church built by Christ and lost it's way is to say Jesus was wrong. The Church was built on Peter... but for the Church to be built on Peter, and have authority, it cannot be all Christian believers. The Catholic Church is that which is lead by the successor of Peter. (Me) It seems more to be talking about church discipline regarding sin than teaching authority, but you are certainly right that this passage refers to the Church having authority. Again, I must ask: how does this mean that the Church has the infallible teaching authority the Catholic Church claims? Matthew 18:15-20 15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them."
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