Catholic Churches Position On Divorce?

[Aloysius]

If it were about money, Henry VIII would've been granted an annulment. The Catholic Church pretty much lost all of England because she refused to compromise on what is required to receive an annulment. If she's willing to lose England, I think she's willing to lose people that give hundreds of thousands of dollars to her per year, if they don't have a legitimate case. rich people get rejected for annulments just as much as poor people do.

[Noel's angel]

[quote name='StColette' post='1817834' date='Mar 27 2009, 07:06 PM']Do we have proof of it happening? I would be cautious about saying such things in a matter of fact way. Unless we have proof of it happening, I don't believe we should going around saying that the Church lets this take place.[/quote]

The person himself openly admits it. My mum's friend was told by him that if he gave a certain amount he would see that she got an annulment. She didn't do it of course.

I'm not saying that this goes on everywhere, for all I know this man could be the only person in the world doing it.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Noel's angel

[Aloysius]

annulments are not infallible. when one honestly and openly pursues the process with the right intention and the Church tells them that their previous marriage did not actually take place, then God will not consider that person to have committed adultery if they remarry even if the annulment was an errant one, because the person did it in good faith and has no culpability... but anyone who pursues an annulment through any underhanded means and therefore knows that their marriage would not actually qualify for annulment by the Church's standards, that person commits adultery by contracting another marriage and will be treated that way in the last judgment.

the type of simony described above will be another damnable sin by both parties to it to be explained before the Lord on the Day of Doom.

the annulment process is a way of trusting the Church and the Apostles (Bishops) of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the dispensation of the sacraments; it is up to them to determine whether or not a true sacrament of matrimony had been confected in you in the marriage you are seeking to annul. If they do not find cause to say it was not a true sacrament, then you live out your life according to that judgment. For the sins they retain are retained, the sins they forgive are forgiven, and whatsoever they bind on earth shall be considered bound in heaven... so says Our Lord of the powers of His Apostles, the Bishops.

[CatherineM]

If money or power really made that much of a difference in whether an annulment would be given, Joseph Kennedy's annulment wouldn't have been overturned. The local tribunal only makes the original declaration. It is then reviewed by the Roman Rota before the big guy stamps his ring on it.

[Noel's angel]

Right I think this is getting off track. It happens (or at least has happened). But that isn't really the point of this thread.

[Dave]

It seems like so many Catholics seem to think that it's OK to divorce just so long as you don't remarry (unless you get an annulment). However, divorce in and of itself, even without the intent to remarry, can be mortally sinful (assuming that the marriage in question is valid). Let me make it clear that I am NOT referring to those marriages that end due to serious reasons such as abuse, addictions, or repeated and unrepentant adultery. But in today's society, it seems that many, many divorces (even among Catholics) happen because of mere unhappiness, boredom, financial problems, "growing apart," etc. Once upon a time it used to be the case where a bishop had to give permission for a validly married couple merely to separate, be it temporarily or permanently! So it stands to reason that you had to have a STRONG reason for wanting to separate!

[southern california guy]

I never knew much about annulments, but from what I've read it sounds like they're nonsense. What is this nonsense about "intentions"? Could somebody explain it simply and clearly, and give an example?

It seems to me that if you took vows to god. Then you took REAL vows to god!!!! Or can people fool god? Or maybe there isn't really a god so none of it really matters anyway? So why do people bother with annulments? I would think that god is fairly smart and would know if the original vows were REAL or FAKE Is it mainly so that the divorcee can remarry within the church? It is, isn't it!

Can people who were married and had children get an annulment? Do their children become bastards after the anulment -- since there was "never really a marriage"? And are single guys supposed to pretend that women who were married and got a divorce and an annulment -- are the same as women who never married and had sex with their husband??

[CatherineM]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818118' date='Mar 27 2009, 07:50 PM']I never knew much about annulments, but from what I've read it sounds like they're nonsense. What is this nonsense about "intentions"? Could somebody explain it simply and clearly, and give an example?

It seems to me that if you took vows to god. Then you took REAL vows to god!!!! Or can people fool god? Or maybe there isn't really a god so none of it really matters anyway? So why do people bother with annulments? I would think that god is fairly smart and would know if the original vows were REAL or FAKE Is it mainly so that the divorcee can remarry within the church? It is, isn't it!

Can people who were married and had children get an annulment? Do their children become bastards after the anulment -- since there was "never really a marriage"? And are single guys supposed to pretend that women who were married and got a divorce and an annulment -- are the same as women who never married and had sex with their husband?? [/quote]

You seem to want to paint the church as being involved in some kind of dastardly hypocrisy. In dealing with people whose relationship has broken, we should approach them with compassion, and without judgment. People often think that it is the marriage certificate that gets a divorced Catholic in trouble with the church (my father included). It isn't the paperwork, it is the sex. Someone who is divorced and living a celibate life, can be in complete communion with the church. Someone who is divorced, but not remarried, yet in a sexual relationship with someone who is not their original spouse, isn't.

Children born to a couple who's marriage is later annulled are not retro-actively illegitimate. It is one of the most common questions I was asked when working in the tribunal. Legitimate or illegitimate is a civil/legal term, and has nothing to do with the sacrament. The church isn't in the business of making innocent children illegitimate.

There are many things that can cause a marriage to never have occurred. In Contract Law we have a term called, "meeting of the minds." Without it, a contract isn't valid. Same here with annulments. If one party to a marriage promises to raise their children Catholic, but isn't intending to go through with the promise, then they have enticed their spouse into marriage based on a falsehood. If that innocent spouse had known their true intentions, they may well not have gone through with the marriage.

Before making a life time commitment, we are entitled to know what we are getting into. Someone under the influence of drugs, alcohol or even some active mental illnesses, are not capable of understanding the commitment they are making. These types of things mean that a true meeting of the minds of the spouses never happened, and a true sacramental bond didn't occur. It is the same as someone being baptized in the name of the Redeemer rather than in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It isn't a valid sacrament.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818118' date='Mar 27 2009, 06:50 PM']It seems to me that if you took vows to god. Then you took REAL vows to god!!!! Or can people fool god? Or maybe there isn't really a god so none of it really matters anyway? So why do people bother with annulments? I would think that god is fairly smart and would know if the original vows were REAL or FAKE Is it mainly so that the divorcee can remarry within the church? It is, isn't it! [/quote]

Not everyone gets married in the Church or takes vows "before God". Many people get married in registry offices or civil ceremonies. Many people who get married are not baptised - in any church! These marriages are not valid in the eyes of the Church, especially if one or both of the parties are not Catholics (or even baptised Christians)! These marriages can be annuled due to a "lack of form".

The reason why people get annulments is many and varied, and it seems that instead of worrying about whether or not some people might be "abusing the system", it would be good to practice a little charity and understanding. No one is perfect, and the Church provides annulments because she sees a need to do so -- for many reasons. Just as sometimes a religious might be released from their vows, sometimes married people are released from their vows through annulment.

The best prevention for divorces and/or annulments is really good preparation before marriage. I know one couple who were required to go to marriage education before they got married in the Church, but they paid another couple to do it for them because they couldn't be bothered going! No surprise that their marriage is having a lot of trouble right now! Prevention is better than cure!

[Dave]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1818222' date='Mar 27 2009, 11:26 PM']Not everyone gets married in the Church or takes vows "before God". Many people get married in registry offices or civil ceremonies. Many people who get married are not baptised - in any church! These marriages are not valid in the eyes of the Church, especially if one or both of the parties are not Catholics (or even baptised Christians)! These marriages can be annuled due to a "lack of form".[/quote]

Actually, if 2 non-Catholics Christians or 2 non-Christians got married in a civil ceremony or registry office, said marriage, while not sacramental, may indeed be valid. It's only when a Catholic is marrying in a civil or other non-Catholic ceremony without the necessary dispensations that such a marriage would be invalid due to lack of form.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Dave' post='1818252' date='Mar 27 2009, 09:47 PM']Actually, if 2 non-Catholics Christians or 2 non-Christians got married in a civil ceremony or registry office, said marriage, while not sacramental, may indeed be valid. It's only when a Catholic is marrying in a civil or other non-Catholic ceremony without the necessary dispensations that such a marriage would be invalid due to lack of form.[/quote]

You're right. When a remarried couple is trying to get their marriage blessed by the church, it is often the Protestant spouse's former marriage that is the difficulty. We don't hold them to the same standards as we do Catholics.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1818222' date='Mar 27 2009, 08:26 PM']Not everyone gets married in the Church or takes vows "before God". Many people get married in registry offices or civil ceremonies. Many people who get married are not baptised - in any church! These marriages are not valid in the eyes of the Church, especially if one or both of the parties are not Catholics (or even baptised Christians)! These marriages can be annuled due to a "lack of form".[/quote]

I was down in Mexico in February -- on a "Singles Serving Orphans" mission, which is Catholic -- and the Sunday Mass that we attended included a wedding. The priest explained that the couple already had a civil marriage (So they had already made commitments to each other), but now they were getting married in the Catholic church to make the marriage valid.

But why would the Catholic church have to "annul" a civil marriage -- where no vows were taken?

[quote name='nunsense' post='1818222' date='Mar 27 2009, 08:26 PM']The reason why people get annulments is many and varied, and it seems that instead of worrying about whether or not some people might be "abusing the system", it would be good to practice a little charity and understanding. No one is perfect, and the Church provides annulments because she sees a need to do so -- for many reasons. Just as sometimes a religious might be released from their vows, sometimes married people are released from their vows through annulment.[/quote]

Nah, I don't agree with everything that the Catholic church, or the members in it do. I suppose I could pretend to -- but then I'd be setting a bad example.



[quote name='nunsense' post='1818222' date='Mar 27 2009, 08:26 PM']The best prevention for divorces and/or annulments is really good preparation before marriage. I know one couple who were required to go to marriage education before they got married in the Church, but they paid another couple to do it for them because they couldn't be bothered going! No surprise that their marriage is having a lot of trouble right now! Prevention is better than cure![/quote]

I wonder about that. I tend to think that church approved "annulments" make people feel that divorce is a reasonable way to solve a problem in their marriage -- rather than going into counceling and working on keeping the marriage together. It seems that people who divorce once -- divorce again and again.

I remember a Priest -- back in the early eighties -- praising the Catholic church for granting more annulments. My mom didn't like it. Has divorce increased in the Catholic since annulments became easier?

Edited March 28, 2009 by southern california guy

[Veridicus]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818361' date='Mar 27 2009, 10:58 PM']But why would the Catholic church have to "annul" a civil marriage -- where no vows were taken?[/quote]

The Church honors the validity of civil marriages between non-catholic men and women; thus if a divorced non-catholic desires to marry within the Church, their previous marriage must be annulled because it is assumed to be valid until examination has proven otherwise. This was the case with my stepdad who was married in a Methodist Church, divorced, and was going to remarry my mom.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Veridicus

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1818366' date='Mar 27 2009, 10:02 PM']The Church honors the validity of civil marriages between non-catholic men and women; thus if a divorced non-catholic desires to marry within the Church, their previous marriage must be annulled because it is assumed to be valid until examination has proven otherwise. This was the case with my stepdad who was married in a Methodist Church, divorced, and was going to remarry my mom.[/quote]

Why? Why does the Catholic church consider a civil marriage between two non-Catholics as "valid", but not a civil marriage between two Catholics?

Are we actually talking about a church (non-Catholic) wedding where vows WERE taken? Like the case with your stepdad who was married in the Methodist Church. At least that makes more sense to me.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818376' date='Mar 27 2009, 11:10 PM']Why? Why does the Catholic church consider a civil marriage between two non-Catholics as "valid", but not a civil marriage between two Catholics?[/quote]

I am not the most educated person to answer that to be honest; you ought to post that question in the "Question & Answers about Catholicism" thread.

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818376' date='Mar 27 2009, 11:10 PM']Are we actually talking about a church (non-Catholic) wedding where vows WERE taken? Like the case with your stepdad who was married in the Methodist Church. At least that makes more sense to me.[/quote]

In the case of non-catholic Christians, the Catholic Church recognizes the validity of their marriages. Which is why the annullment process is necessary.

Please try to keep an open mind as you ask questions and receive answers...I had issues with the whole process myself after my parents divorced...but after asking enough questions and really thinking and praying about it, it started to make sense. The seeming "red tape" on the marriage issue enacted within the Catholic Church really speaks volumes about how serious the Church takes her sacraments and how she takes Christ's word seriously. My "signature" here on phatmass is Ephesians 5; Paul quotes Genesis where it says "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." Christ uses the "lifelong" committment of marriage as an image of his mysterious relationship with the Church; this theme is revisted in Revelations 19. Marriage is a very permanent thing which Christ chose as an image of his love for the Church. So the Church doesn't want to frivolously give its approval to divorce and remarriage; hence the annullment process. It must be determined that something prevented one or both of the couple to consent validly to the marriage; if it cannot be demonstrated that there was an impediment...then it WAS a valid marriage and there will be no annullment. Have there been abuses and excesses in distribution of annullments? Of course. But this in no way delegitimatizes the necessity of the process nor the Church's responsibility in guarding the Sacraments.

Peace,

Todd

Edited March 28, 2009 by Veridicus

[CatherineM]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818376' date='Mar 27 2009, 11:10 PM']Why? Why does the Catholic church consider a civil marriage between two non-Catholics as "valid", but not a civil marriage between two Catholics?[/quote]


To those who have been given more, more is expected. Catholics are required to be married, in church before a priest. That's one of the rules of being a Catholic. We are expected to follow the rules of our church, but it would be silly to expect those who are not Catholic to follow our church rules about marriage.

[Veridicus]

"What you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven; and what you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven"...

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818118' date='Mar 27 2009, 09:50 PM']It seems to me that if you took vows to god. Then you took REAL vows to god!!!! Or can people fool god? Or maybe there isn't really a god so none of it really matters anyway? So why do people bother with annulments? I would think that god is fairly smart and would know if the original vows were REAL or FAKE Is it mainly so that the divorcee can remarry within the church? It is, isn't it! [/quote]

You can't fool God, but you can fool yourself, your fiance/spouse, a priest, and virtually everyone who isn't God. There isn't a magical formula to reading God's mind, so we have an annulment process to use the knowledge we have from Christ about the sacrament of marriage to determine if a specific marriage was valid or not.

You probably missed my last post on this topic... the overarching idea is that God is gracious and he works with us in our failings. This is why it is possible for an ordained man to be laicized if he decides to marry, or simply discerns that priesthood is not his vocation. Diocesan priests can join a religious order, just as religious priests can leave their order to become diocesan. Sisters can leave and join orders, or form their own order (like Blessed Mother Theresa and Fr. Benedict Groeschel). Like Abraham, we don't know what God has planned from the first step we begin following him... we just follow one step at a time and when we misstep -- if we are humble -- he gets us back on the right track.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818361' date='Mar 28 2009, 12:58 AM']But why would the Catholic church have to "annul" a civil marriage -- where no vows were taken?[/quote]

If no vows were taken, there wouldn't be an annulment. It would be declared invalid. A friend of mine had this done pretty easily because her ex-husband wasn't baptized. Valid marriage requires both the man and woman to be baptized, so if that isn't the case, it's easy to declare that invalid.

That said, the pain of separation remains just as real, so spiritual and psychological healing are still necessary to continue in life as a healthier Christian.

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818361' date='Mar 28 2009, 12:58 AM']Nah, I don't agree with everything that the Catholic church, or the members in it do. I suppose I could pretend to -- but then I'd be setting a bad example.[/quote]

Don't pretend... we have enough of that in society as it is Seek and pray to be open and always considering the gift Christ has for you through his Church, but don't pretend like it's being imposed upon you. You must receive it freely if you receive it at all.

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818361' date='Mar 28 2009, 12:58 AM']I wonder about that. I tend to think that church approved "annulments" make people feel that divorce is a reasonable way to solve a problem in their marriage -- rather than going into counceling and working on keeping the marriage together. It seems that people who divorce once -- divorce again and again.[/quote]

Prayer and counseling should be fully exhausted, of course. A faithful and sincere annulment process will put a stop to that cycle, but many people use annulment as a mechanical process that gets what they want. Of course, the second time around it's far less likely to be approved. Catherine would know more about than me.

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818361' date='Mar 28 2009, 12:58 AM']I remember a Priest -- back in the early eighties -- praising the Catholic church for granting more annulments. My mom didn't like it. Has divorce increased in the Catholic since annulments became easier?[/quote]

It goes both ways. We live in a rich, stubborn, spoiled society and Catholics are no different. Since civil divorce is easier, people are more likely to enter marriage without discerning it carefully, and that makes it more likely they'll take vows just to get "married." You should find, though, that the Church is less flexible in granting annulments than the courthouse is at granting a civil divorce/annulment. It's not perfect, but then, are any of us perfect?

Edited March 28, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Dave]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1818844' date='Mar 28 2009, 07:36 PM']Valid marriage requires both the man and woman to be baptized, so if that isn't the case, it's easy to declare that invalid.[/quote]

Wrong! [b]Sacramental[/b] marriage requires both the man and the woman to be baptized. Even if one or both parties aren't baptized, the marriage could still very well be valid, albeit a natural rather than sacramental marriage.