Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

[Hananiah]

[quote]I apologize . . . it's just so hard to have a "normal" conversation with people who are more Catholic than the pope . . . [/quote]

That's a canard. You probably consider yourself more Catholic than Liberius, Blazer.

By the way, I don't believe there's such a thing as more or less Catholic. It is an either/or. One either believes every dogma the Church teaches, or one is an heretic.

Well, perhaps it is possible for one person to be "more" Catholic than another in so far as one Catholic might believe a dogma in its original intent while another might, while not outrightly rejecting it, believe in a watered down form which renders it almost meaningless.

Edited March 25, 2004 by Hananiah

[BLAZEr]

blah blah blah . . . [Edited by Ice Princess: Play nice! ]

[Hananiah]

Go back to the original definition of the dogma.

[quote]The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)[/quote]

Obviously, any interpretation of [i]extra ecclesiam nulla salus[/i] in which the dogma does not exclude heretics and schismatics is wrong, ipso facto. No amount of mental and exegetical gymnastics will ever be able to reconcile Cantate Domino with the modern notion that all sincere Protestants and Eastern Orthodox are privy to a partial communion with the Catholic Church which will enable them to attain salvation.

Edited March 25, 2004 by Hananiah

[BLAZEr]

so, ummm now a Bull is Dogmatic?


Actually, can you post the Latin . . . I'd like to see his actual words . . .

[Livin_the_MASS]

I need to look that up for myself????

[quote]QUOTE 
The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)[/quote]


????

[Hananiah]

Eugene wasn't just speaking by himself there; he was speaking as the head of the Council of Florence. Also, this isn't the only place the dogma is defined. Unam Sanctam does the same, as does the Fourth Lateran Council.

Sorry, I wouldn't know where to find the Latin.

[Bruce S]

It is the height of arrogance to tie DENOMINATIONAL choice [being a Roman Catholic] to salvation.

Jesus taught that confessing and alliance to HIS divinity was the key to salvation, never once did He tie it to a visible church on earth.

Salvation was simple, easily accomplished, and flowed naturally from this conversion experience.

This is what gets Catholics such a bum rap in the world today, JP II knows that, and WOULD if he could, END this ... but, it is that need to be always right, and the ties to the past teachings that stops his promoting this as infallible.

Sheesh.

Edited March 25, 2004 by Bruce S

[Ellenita]

Woah, this is a tough cookie!

However, with respect to babies which have been aborted, and unbaptised infants through no fault of their own.....I'm absolutely convinced that God is far greater in His mercy, love and grace than any of us can ever comprehend, so who are we to suggest they might not be in heaven? In fact, until, (and hopefully! ) we get there ourselves we will never know....I suspect, if we are not too busy praising God, we're going to get a shock at who might be there anyway.....!!


[b]IcePrincess[/b], you are doing a wonderful job as Mod -thanks! :wub: As a new convert, it's quite tiring keeping up with all the infighting, and it's appreciated that you keep it clean!


[quote]JP II knows that and WOULD if he could END this, but it is that need to always be right and the ties to the past teachings that stops his promoting this as infallible.[/quote]

Bruce, do you have some supporting evidence fo this statement?

[p0lar_bear]

CatholicCrusader,

Just out of curiosity, how is your position different than the condemned teachings of Fr. Feeney?

(Oh, and just in case, I know that he was not technically excommunicated for these teachings, but they were condemned by the Holy See nonetheless.)

[DojoGrant]

If Baptism unites all to the Church in, at least, an incomplete but partial way, and it is the only sacrament necessary for salvation, then all not completely united to the Church can still achieve salvation.

If Scripture and teaching are from the Church, which includes Baptism, and Baptism is the only Sacrament necessary for salvation, then those who are Baptised are Baptised into and through the Church. They do not have the other Sacraments to aid them, but they are not ipso facto excluded from eternal salvation.

So I don't see what the point of this argument is. We should preach the full Gospel and bring as many as we can into full communion with Christ's Church, but we do not say that they are damned either, because that implies a pre-death judgement takes place, and THAT is heresy.

[p0lar_bear]

This is a post of mine from a different thread...

The concept that those who are not visibly Catholic are not condemned to hell is not new.


[quote]
"God . . . in His supreme goodness and clemency, by no means allows anyone to be punished with eternal punishments who does not have the guilt of voluntary fault" (Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, (August, 1863), no. 7). [/quote]



On August 9, 1949, the Holy Office, by order of Pope Pius XII, and basing
itself on the teaching of Pius XII in his Mystical Body Encyclical, condemned the error of Leonard Feeney who held that those who failed to enter the Church formally, even with no fault of their own, could not reach salvation. The decree says:


[quote]
"It is not always required that one be actually incorporated as a member of the Church, but this at least is required: that one adhere to it in wish and desire. It is not always necessary that this be explicit . . . but when a man labors under invincible ignorance, God accepts even an implicit will, called by that name because it is contained in the good disposition of soul in which a man wills to conform his will to the will of God."  [/quote]



In the Encyclical Mystici Corporis (1943), Pius XII said that a man can be "ordered to the Church by a certain desire and wish of which he is not aware (no. 103)," that is, the one contained in the good dispositions mentioned by the Holy Office.


(The information herein is from an article by Fr. William Most, "Is There Salvation Outside the Church?" This article is available online at [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/OUTSID.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/OUTSID.TXT[/url] Sorry, I'm too lazy to do my own research today....)

[Hananiah]

[quote name='DojoGrant' date='Mar 25 2004, 09:00 AM'] If Baptism unites all to the Church in, at least, an incomplete but partial way, and it is the only sacrament necessary for salvation, then all not completely united to the Church can still achieve salvation. [/quote]
Everyone who is baptized most certainly is made a member of the Church. However, if at a later time the baptized person rejects the authority of the Roman pontiff he then excludes himself from membership in the Church.

"...since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: 'Feed my sheep' [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.'" (UNAM SANCTAM , 1302)

[Hananiah]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Mar 25 2004, 05:57 AM'] It is the height of arrogance to tie DENOMINATIONAL choice [being a Roman Catholic] to salvation. [/quote]
1) No one has to be a Roman Catholic. I, for one, am a Byzantine.

2) Some say that it is the height of arrogance for Christians to claim that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.

[quote]Jesus taught that confessing and alliance to HIS divinity was the key to salvation, never once did He tie it to a visible church on earth.[/quote]
I disagree. Jesus repeatedly emphasized the singularity and juridical authority of His Church (Matt 16:18, 18:17-18, John 10:16) and said that rejecting His representatives was tantamount to rejecting Him (Luke 10:16). The Protestant postulate that Jesus' one Chrurch refers to an invisible, pan-denominational unity which includes people whose doctrinal differences are greater than those between St. Paul and the Galatian Judaizers is, at best, a stretch. I prefer to take Christ's words at face value, and interpret them in the way they were interpreted by every Church Father: Christ founded one, visible, institutional Church. This interpretation also allows me to find a fulfillment of the prophecy of Daniel:

[quote]"... the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth ... the God of Jeaven will set up a kingdom that shall never by destroyed, and His kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people: and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms: and itself shall stand for ever. (Dan. 2:35, 44)

In these two verses, the prophet Daniel reveals to us all at once the visibility, universality, and immutability of the true Church. Visibility, because this kingdom fills "the whole earth" and is as "a great mountain" - who has ever heard of a mountain that was so great as to fill the entire earth and yet remain invisible? Universality, because this kingdom fills "the whole earth," and conquers over "all these kingdoms" of the earth. Immutability, because this kingdom "shall stand forever."

What more proof do we need that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ? Has there ever been another Church that has filled the whole earth, that has been visible for all to see, that had its inception during the days of the Roman Empire (Daniel says this kindgom will be established "in the days of those kingdoms," the last of which was the Roman Empire in the first century), and that has remained upon the earth ever since that time?
[url="http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/04Feb/feb25qds.htm"]http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/04Feb/feb25qds.htm[/url]
[/quote]

I do not believe it is possible for a Protestant to harmonize this prophecy with his ecclesiology.

[quote]This is what gets Catholics such a bum rap in the world today, JP II knows that, and WOULD if he could, END this ... but, it is that need to be always right, and the ties to the past teachings that stops his promoting this as infallible.[/quote]
You're probably right here. The Catholic Church makes by far the boldest claims of any Chuch on earth, including Churches of non-Christian religions. But the hatred of the world is no reason to stop making these cliams (John 15:18-25), especially since those claims are true.

Yes, JPII probably would take back Unam Sanctam and Cantate Domino if he could. But I can't really blame him. I almost feel the same way.

[Livin_the_MASS]

I believe in His Divine Mercy for souls!

Let us say "Jesus I trust in You"

He desires the salvation of souls!

"Jesus I trust in You"

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Mar 25 2004, 09:03 AM'] CatholicCrusader,

Just out of curiosity, how is your position different than the condemned teachings of Fr. Feeney?

(Oh, and just in case, I know that he was not technically excommunicated for these teachings, but they were condemned by the Holy See nonetheless.) [/quote]
If I am not mistaken Cardinal Ratzinger came out a few years ago and said that the strict interpretation of this doctrine can fit within Catholic Orthodoxy. I will have to find the quote for you though. Sorry. But it is for this reason that the Slaves of the Immaculate, who are Feenyite, up in New Hampshire and Massachusettes are permited to continue their "apostolate".

Edited March 26, 2004 by popestpiusx