Could A Pope Become An Antichrist ?

[Guest]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1837050' date='Apr 16 2009, 02:28 AM']what is this and where did you get it?[/quote]

The same place I got the one above it I dont even remember now.

The one above it though I am finding all over.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Guest

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1836708' date='Apr 15 2009, 09:25 PM']"Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: "They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!" But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him." St. Catherine of Siena, SCS, p. 201-202, p. 222, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 5: "The Book of Obedience", Chapter 1: "There is No Salvation Without Personal Submission to the Pope").[/quote]

Where in St. Catherine of Siena's works does she say this? Not that I disagree with it, but I want to read it in context if it is truly from her.

I don't trust the source as it is a group that is in schism, I believe...

[Guest]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1837052' date='Apr 16 2009, 02:31 AM']Where in St. Catherine of Siena's works does she say this? Not that I disagree with it, but I want to read it in context if it is truly from her.

I don't trust the source as it is a group that is in schism, I believe...[/quote]

Hey Godbless
Im saying this in the most sincere and humble way, how could agree with that ?

Edited April 16, 2009 by Guest

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1837051' date='Apr 16 2009, 02:31 AM']The same place I got the one above it I dont even remember now.

The one above it though I am finding all over.[/quote]

Well... what kind of document is it? What is it?

I find this quote more troubling by far then from what St. Catherine of Siena said...

[Guest]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1837055' date='Apr 16 2009, 02:34 AM']Well... what kind of document is it? What is it?

I find this quote more troubling by far then from what St. Catherine of Siena said...[/quote]

ya when revelation says this :

Revelation 22 - 18

I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this book : if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city desribed in this book.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1837054' date='Apr 16 2009, 02:34 AM']Hey Godbless
Im saying this in the most sincere and humble way, how could agree with that ?[/quote]

Well you have to think...

I haven't read it in context but I would say...

The Pope could never be the Devil Incarnate so that was just a figure or speech she was using. She didn't mean it literally. She was going for the most evil person she could imagine. However, no matter if he is the most evil person with the worst of intentions Christ has still appointed him as His vicar and he is infallible in all matters of faith and morals. When we practice obedience to Him we practice obedience to Christ himself because he is the Vicar of Christ. He is Christ's representative on earth. I totally agree with this.

There have been many evil popes. Bad men who did terrible things and committed grave sins, however they never spoke wrongly on matters of faith and morals. Their actions may have been terrible, but when they spoke in the name of Christ they spoke purely and rightly.

There was even one anti-pope who became pope and had every intention of doing something quiet terrible, but he just did not when he became pope. It is because he is bound by infallibility and guided by the Holy Spirit.

[Guest]

ok so what if when the antichrist comes (which it seems alot of catholics dont think is goig to happen) and he performs miracles and claims to be Christ and wants to unite all the religions, what happens if an evil pope goes along with this and tells catholics and the world this is ok ?
am i to follow even though i know the antichrist comes first at the 6th trump and the Lord Jesus Christ doesnt come to the 7th trump ?

again this is just a senerio although im really confused with popes calling for a new world order and all the faiths coming together. and then on top of that when i hear alot of catholics say there is no antichrist coming and it already happend and is over with, it really makes me wonder what is going on ?

Edited April 16, 2009 by Guest

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1837056' date='Apr 16 2009, 02:36 AM']ya when revelation says this :

Revelation 22 - 18

I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this book : if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city desribed in this book.[/quote]

1) The reason I find the previous quote troubling because taken a certain way at first it can come off very wrongly and totally against the Church.

2) Revelation 22:18 is referring to the book of revelation itself... not the entire Bible. However, because the Scriptures have been declared the Inspired Word of God by the Church and Popes for the last 2000 years a Pope could not just "dismiss" a book or "change" it. It would be like a man having a child or a woman being a priest ... It just will not happen and could not happen.

God has declared the truth the books that are inspired and so God, who cannot be wrong or err or change, would not declare something different after 2000 years through the person of the Holy Father

[Guest]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1837065' date='Apr 16 2009, 01:48 AM']1) The reason I find the previous quote troubling because taken a certain way at first it can come off very wrongly and totally against the Church.

2) Revelation 22:18 is referring to the book of revelation itself... not the entire Bible. However, because the Scriptures have been declared the Inspired Word of God by the Church and Popes for the last 2000 years a Pope could not just "dismiss" a book or "change" it. It would be like a man having a child or a woman being a priest ... It just will not happen and could not happen.

God has declared the truth the books that are inspired and so God, who cannot be wrong or err or change, would not declare something different after 2000 years through the person of the Holy Father[/quote]


I typed the quote in a search engine and I cant find it to show up anywhere so it might not even be authentic.
I dont know.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Guest

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1837051' date='Apr 16 2009, 02:31 AM']The same place I got the one above it I dont even remember now.

The one above it though I am finding all over.[/quote]

For a quote to be an official document of the Roman See, it ordinarily has to be published in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1837064' date='Apr 16 2009, 02:45 AM']ok so what if when the antichrist comes (which it seems alot of catholics dont think is goig to happen) and he performs miracles and claims to be Christ and wants to unite all the religions, what happens if an evil pope goes along with this and tells catholics and the world this is ok ?
am i to follow even though i know the antichrist comes first at the 6th trump and the Lord Jesus Christ doesnt come to the 7th trump ?[/quote]

You have to have faith in the words of Christ to the Apostles:

"For it will not be you who speak but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you." -Matthew 10:20

"For the holy Spirit will teach you at that moment what you should say." - Luke 12:12

Our Lord promised to be with his church until the end of time and to guide Peter and, in turn, his successors.

The Holy Father will never do anything in regards to faith and morals that is inaccurate or wrong, as he is led by the Holy Spirit. He is the Vicar of Christ. You just have to trust in Christ on this one and in His words.

[quote]again this is just a senerio although im really confused with popes calling for a new world order and all the faiths coming together. and then on top of that when i hear alot of catholics say there is no antichrist coming and it already happend and is over with, it really makes me wonder what is going on ?[/quote]

All the faiths coming together: [u]coming home to the church[/u]: the one, true flock which will never be led astray as the Holy Spirit is its guide.

nothing is going on. trust in Christ and pray for our holy father.

Edited April 16, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria

[Guest]

this is the website it is on [mod]Link removed. --Era Might[/mod]

[Resurrexi]

That's about as reputable a source on Catholicism as the Jesus Seminar is on 1st Century Palestine.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1837073' date='Apr 16 2009, 02:58 AM']this is the website it is on [mod]Link removed. --Era Might[/mod][/quote]

That website will probably be deleted off of phatmass just because it leads to a conspiracy website filled with heresy and anti-Catholic propaganda.

Why do you keep going to anti-Catholic websites and looking for stuff?

Pray. Trust in Christ's words. Stop visiting conspiracy anti-Catholic websites.

[Guest]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1837072' date='Apr 16 2009, 01:58 AM']You have to have faith in the words of Christ to the Apostles:

"For it will not be you who speak but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you." -Matthew 10:20

"For the holy Spirit will teach you at that moment what you should say." - Luke 12:12

Our Lord promised to be with his church until the end of time and to guide Peter and, in turn, his successors.

The Holy Father will never do anything in regards to faith and morals that is inaccurate or wrong, as he is led by the Holy Spirit. He is the Vicar of Christ. You just have to trust in Christ on this one and in His words.



All the faiths coming together: [u]coming home to the church[/u]: the one, true flock which will never be led astray as the Holy Spirit is its guide.

nothing is going on. trust in Christ and pray for our holy father. [/quote]


Again Godbless and thanks for your replies.

So we as catholics and the church fathers and popes believe and teach the antichirst is coming before Jesus Christ right ? As in the antichirst who will perform signs and wonders and even make fire come down from heaven and even decieve the ellect if that were possible ?

[Guest]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1837077' date='Apr 16 2009, 02:01 AM']That website will probably be deleted off of phatmass just because it leads to a conspiracy website filled with heresy and anti-Catholic propaganda.

Why do you keep going to anti-Catholic websites and looking for stuff?

Pray. Trust in Christ's words. Stop visiting conspiracy anti-Catholic websites. [/quote]

Because im starting to find some of the stuff about the popes very troubling and the quotes to go along with it.

Follow and obey the pope even if it was satan himself ?

What ?

Then learning that the orthadox church goes back to Christ time to and doesnt submit to the pope or his authority has me questioning things further.

I want to make sure I am in a church that God wants me to be in. I dont want to be part of no deception or be responsible for trying to lead people into deception by telling them to become Roman Catholic if indeed that is not Gods will.

Im confused and probally being attacked by satan but I dont know.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Guest

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1837079' date='Apr 16 2009, 03:03 AM']Again Godbless and thanks for your replies.

So we as catholics and the church fathers and popes believe and teach the antichirst is coming before Jesus Christ right ? As in the antichirst who will perform signs and wonders and even make fire come down from heaven and even decieve the ellect if that were possible ?[/quote]

Honestly, I am not the one to ask.

[Resurrexi]

You're probably not going to find the Orthodox terribly biblical either. They allow divorce of a consummated sacramental marriage.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1837084' date='Apr 16 2009, 03:08 AM']Because im starting to find some of the stuff about the popes very troubling and the quotes to go along with it.

Follow and obey the pope even if it was satan himself ?

What ?

Then learning that the orthadox church goes back to Christ time to and doesnt submit to the pope or his authority has me questioning things further.

I want to make sure I am in a church that God wants me to be in. I dont want to be part of no deception or be responsible for trying to lead people into deception by telling them to become Roman Catholic if indeed that is not Gods will.

Im confused and probally being attacked by satan but I dont know.[/quote]

Well, if you are interested in the Orthodox faith then you still don't need to be going to hard-core evangelical anti-Catholic websites because the Orthodox is going to disagree with them as well.

2. The Orthodox Church can be traced back to Christ, but it is disobedient to Scripture. Christ gave the key of heaven to Peter and made him his vicar. He has authority. The church is built upon him. You would be going down the wrong road to contemplate going out of communion with the church. Plus, you would get a not-so-fun don't rep pope. Not good.

I think you are being attacked by Satan. Prayers for you. Don't go to those sites anymore and research apologetics on why Peter is the Vicar of Christ. Learn to defend yourself against these wild claims against the papacy. www.scripturecatholic.com

Edited April 16, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria

[abercius24]

Vatican I and II teach that the Papacy is the primary source of unity Christ gave to all Christians. The First and Second Epistles of John clearly state that the anti-Christ will be a source of disunity in the Church -- in fact he boldly states that ecclesial disunity is the spirit of the anti-Christ. The Papacy cannot both be a source of unity and disunity, so the answer would be NO, the Pope cannot be the anti-Christ.

I have heard, though, various prophecies from saints stating that a false Pope may someday be the anti-Christ, which is consistent with Matthew 24:

[quote name='Matthew 24:14-16 - NAB']14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 "When you see the desolating abomination spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those in Judea must flee to the mountains[/quote]

Edited April 16, 2009 by abercius24