Why Is All Divorce Wrong In The Catholic Church?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='StColette' post='1842499' date='Apr 21 2009, 11:28 AM']And yes, annulments are long, but I would not say they are costly. Many diocese that I'm aware of will help cover the costs of the annulment process.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
it depends on the marriage too, as far as an annulment is concerned. my sister married in a lutheran church, and so her annulment was fairly quick and painless - it took about 6 months to clear up. of course, it was a fairly straightforward case too.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1842518' date='Apr 21 2009, 11:46 AM']What is an unlawful marriage? One in which an annulment may be granted?[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
i think my sister's case would be a good example - married in a lutheran church by a lutheran pastor with no dispensation from the Catholic Church.

[StColette]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1842518' date='Apr 21 2009, 01:46 PM']What is an unlawful marriage? One in which an annulment may be granted?[/quote]

I'm guessing that an unlawful marriage would be one that is not considered Sacramentally valid. Unlawful could be for example someone entering into a marriage against their will, which is grounds for annulment.

[Ziggamafu]

As St. Collette said, the passage in question is interpreted by the Church as referring to "fornication" (that is, an invalid marriage). This is no innovation; such has been the constant understanding of this passage since ancient times. The word in Greek can correctly be translated as "fornication" or "sexual immorality"; the Church understands the former to be the intended translation in regards to the cited passage.

[rkwright]

I see... that is a very "Catholic" way of looking at it! I like it...

Jesus says we can divorce in cases of unlawful marriage. The Church tells us what is unlawful marriage through the annulment process. Correct?

[StColette]

porneia is the Greek word in the verse, btw. It can be translated as fornication, unfaithfulness, or unlawful marriage. Moicheia is the Greek word for adultery, which isn't used in the verse in question. Gal 5:19 shows there's a distinction between the two words because they are listed with one another instead of just listing one. I know porneia can also refer to sexual relationships/marriages between close relatives, which would be a big no no according to Leviticus.

[Dr_Asik]

[quote name='StColette' post='1842499' date='Apr 21 2009, 02:28 PM']Dr. Asik if your parents had a Sacramental marriage it cannot be dissolved even by annulment. Annulments within the Church are given only to marriages that are considered non-sacramental in natural. The Church does not "undo" Sacraments.


And yes, annulments are long, but I would not say they are costly. Many diocese that I'm aware of will help cover the costs of the annulment process.

And it does not matter about being accepted within the parish or not, many parishes would accept a remarried Catholic who is in need of an annulment first. The matter is that it is not acceptable to God, which is clear according to Scripture. The Anglican Church can beat around this bush all they want but it doesn't change God's law.

Believe me, I understand how painful divorce can be. As I stated above, my parents divorced. My mom actually cheated on my father and is now currently married to the man she left my father for. She completely abandoned her children. I've forgiven her. My concern for her isn't that she has been able to move on and remarry but my deepest concern for her is for her soul.[/quote]I know what's an annulment, it doesn't undo an existing marriage, it merely establishes the invalidity of what was thought to be a marriage. And I say my parents could obtain it.

I respect your point of view of your own parents, but we haven't been through the same thing and I ask you to respect mine too. My parents have had their faults, but they have never even thought about rejecting their responsabilities towards the family. This divorce has caused too much harm to everyone for us (because it would imply all the children too) to go through an annulment, we've got a life to live, if you see my meaning.

Yes it's God's law. But if you want to reason in those strict terms, then I'll say they've endured enough unwarranted purgatory through this divorce that they can remarry and not fear any additional retribution.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Dr_Asik

[StColette]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1842547' date='Apr 21 2009, 02:08 PM']I respect your point of view of your own parents, but we haven't been through the same thing and I ask you to respect mine too. My parents have had their faults, but they have never even thought about rejecting their responsabilities towards the family. This divorce has caused too much harm to everyone for us (because it would imply all the children too) to go through an annulment, we've got a life to live, if you see my meaning.[/quote]

I said nothing disrespectful toward your parents or family. If you took anything I said as disrespectful, I apologize, that was definitely not my intention. I would comment more on other parts of your post, which is in error, but I won't because I believe this is too sensitive a topic for you and would only lead to hard feelings.

[dominicansoul]

why aren't our parishes doing more to instruct couples on the Holy Sacrament of Matrimony? It seems we have a greater percentage of people getting "married" in the Church only to turn around and have them annulled. And isn't it possible that this is getting abused? Who are the ones who have the final say that a marriage was never truly made? Who are the members of these tribunals? Didn't Pope John Paul make a statement that those who have annulled, even they should re-consider staying single and living the holy single life, rather than re-marry? When he said this back in the mid-90's(?) there was a small uproar...
...i tend to agree...most of those who have annulled two or even three times makes me wonder if marriage is their vocation...

I find it all so sad...

It reminds me of what the Virgin Mary said at Fatima, that "many marriages" would not be pleasing in the eyes of God...

...and if we think about it, the family unit has been ferociously attacked by the beast...he knows holy families are vital to Holy Mother Church and Her mission on earth...

...i wonder, are any of these couples who apply for annullments receiving counseling? Do they understand what they are doing? Do they even know what it all means? Do any get turned down? Or are the majority of those who want out receiving exactly what they want...? Could it possibly be that some just don't want to take their vows seriously? "til death do we part, in sickness and health, in good times and bad..?"

[thessalonian]

" All we want now is to turn the page and live peacefully. If either wants to marry again, it's a shame that they won't be accepted by their parish. What many Catholics do in that situation is marry in the Anglican Church, which is very close to the Catholic Church but a bit more liberal, or dare I say, human."

Transalted - caters to our fallen nature, i.e. tickles our ears. Do you want a Church that gives the straight scoop or one that bends the rules? By what authority does the Anglican Church do this?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1842556' date='Apr 21 2009, 12:18 PM']why aren't our parishes doing more to instruct couples on the Holy Sacrament of Matrimony?[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
because you have many liberals priests, nuns, former nuns, and others on the staffs of those parishes who don't believe in the sacraments or don't believe that marriage is a sacrament.

[Dr_Asik]

[quote name='StColette' post='1842548' date='Apr 21 2009, 03:10 PM']I said nothing disrespectful toward your parents or family. If you took anything I said as disrespectful, I apologize, that was definitely not my intention. I would comment more on other parts of your post, which is in error, but I won't because I believe this is too sensitive a topic for you and would only lead to hard feelings.[/quote]You didn't say anything disrespectful, indeed. I just wanted to make it clear that your situation is yours and mine is mine. You made it appear like remarriage implied rejecting family responsibilities, but while it might be the case in your situation, it's not the case in mine.

It's true that it's a sensitive topic for me, but I can discuss it. Feel free to make the points you wish.

[StColette]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1842556' date='Apr 21 2009, 02:18 PM']why aren't our parishes doing more to instruct couples on the Holy Sacrament of Matrimony? It seems we have a greater percentage of people getting "married" in the Church only to turn around and have them annulled. And isn't it possible that this is getting abused? Who are the ones who have the final say that a marriage was never truly made? Who are the members of these tribunals? Didn't Pope John Paul make a statement that those who have annulled, even they should re-consider staying single and living the holy single life, rather than re-marry? When he said this back in the mid-90's(?) there was a small uproar...
...i tend to agree...most of those who have annulled two or even three times makes me wonder if marriage is their vocation...

I find it all so sad...

It reminds me of what the Virgin Mary said at Fatima, that "many marriages" would not be pleasing in the eyes of God...

...and if we think about it, the family unit has been ferociously attacked by the beast...he knows holy families are vital to Holy Mother Church and Her mission on earth...

...i wonder, are any of these couples who apply for annullments receiving counseling? Do they understand what they are doing? Do they even know what it all means? Do any get turned down? Or are the majority of those who want out receiving exactly what they want...? Could it possibly be that some just don't want to take their vows seriously? "til death do we part, in sickness and health, in good times and bad..?"[/quote]

Lots of questions lol.

[quote]why aren't our parishes doing more to instruct couples on the Holy Sacrament of Matrimony?[/quote]

It depends upon the parish. Some are more strict than others. The parish where I work is very strict when it comes to Sacramental prep, whether it is Baptism, First Communion, Confirmation, Marriage, etc. Numerous meetings with the priests and dre for instruction. It will take a great movement to establish a strict norm at all parishes for this to be accomplished. I know for certain that at the parish where I work the couples are instructed heavily on NFP, finances, what the Sacrament means, etc. regular meetings with the priest and family life coordinator. It's rigorous but worth it.

[quote]Who are the ones who have the final say that a marriage was never truly made? Who are the members of these tribunals?[/quote]

I know our Tribunal is made up of Priests, mostly with Canon Law degrees, and a religious sister who has a degree in Canon Law, I believe. If I remember correctly it requires two affirmative opinions on the annulment for it to be granted.

[quote]...i wonder, are any of these couples who apply for annullments receiving counseling?[/quote]

Most priests that I have spoke with have asked couples to go through counseling first.

[quote]Do they understand what they are doing? Do they even know what it all means?[/quote]

The Tribunal judges/advocates explain all of that to the petitioner.

[quote]Do any get turned down?[/quote]


Yes

[quote]Or are the majority of those who want out receiving exactly what they want...?[/quote]

If it takes two affirmatives, from different Judges, which I think it does, I doubt this is a common occurrence.

[quote]Could it possibly be that some just don't want to take their vows seriously? "til death do we part, in sickness and health, in good times and bad..?"[/quote]

Probably.

[StColette]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1842566' date='Apr 21 2009, 02:24 PM']You made it appear like remarriage implied rejecting family responsibilities, but while it might be the case in your situation, it's not the case in mine.[/quote]

That's why I said it in reference to my parents case and didn't make a generalization If I had said something like "to divorce is to give up your family responsibilities" then yes that would be implying that remarriage/divorce is giving up responsibilities. I didn't nor would I imply such a thing.

[rkwright]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1842556' date='Apr 21 2009, 01:18 PM']why aren't our parishes doing more to instruct couples on the Holy Sacrament of Matrimony? It seems we have a greater percentage of people getting "married" in the Church only to turn around and have them annulled.[/quote]


[quote name='Lil Red' post='1842565' date='Apr 21 2009, 01:24 PM']+J.M.J.+
because you have many liberals priests, nuns, former nuns, and others on the staffs of those parishes who don't believe in the sacraments or don't believe that marriage is a sacrament.[/quote]

I have to disagree to some extent with Lil Red. No doubt there are some liberal priests that have hurt the sacrament... but its more the "liberal Catholic laymen and women" that hurting the sacrament.

Let me give my example. I attended my engaged encounter weekend 3 weeks ago. It was amazing. Led by 3 very orthodox priests who knew and defended the faith well. It discussed all the essentials - NFP, raising kids, the sacrament of marriage, what a sacrament is, ect. ect. ect....

We got near the end of the weekend and the priest opened up the floor for a 30-45 min question answer session. It was good since probably 25-30% of the people there were not Catholics. These people had legitimate questions - one asked why she can't receive communion even though shes lutheran, another asked if priest celibacy is biblical. Good, legitimate questions.

Then came the argumentative questions from Catholics. One from a couple at my table, from what I can remember..."If the Church is telling us we can't use science to control pregnancy and instead just use the natural method doesn't that mean we shouldn't use any medicine ever at all?" Another one from another table "Isn't the Pope's view on condoms in africa killing people". There were others like this, very argumentative.

The priest handled them exceptionally well, even sharing stories when he worked in Mother Teresa in India teaching NFP - very cool. But do you really think it had any effect on the couple?

I guess my point is this: Most couples getting married (probably most liberal) are too arrogant to submit to the Chruch's teaching on whatever issue it is (see Obama's election). It doesn't matter what the Priest is telling them, they already have their minds made up. Maybe this is the product of poor liberal catechesis growing up - I dunno... But I think the problem is with the people not the clergy.

[CatherineM]

I spend the morning in the pool, and come home to find I missed a great discussion. I only have two things to add. First, it's not technically the remarriage that gets you in trouble with the church if you don't have an annulment, it's the sex with someone who is not your spouse in the eyes of the church.

Second, in the time I spent working in the tribunal, I saw no abuse or easy annulments. I saw lots of annulments, and the vast majority were due to immaturity and improper marriage prep. The rest were mostly automatics, like a Catholic not married in the church.

[havok579257]

you guys say the church is not against divorce but the whole remarried thing but yet the catholic church does not grant divorces. so how can they be ok with divorce if they don't grant it? Why don't they grnat them if Jesus himself said its ok for a man to divorce his wife for unfaithfulness? Also the passage seems to indictae re-marriage for the adulter is wrong, not so much for the one who was cheated on.

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

Back in the old days, there was no divorce. The spouse had to die in order to remarry, so people ended up bumping off their spouses in order to remarry someone else. So Moses, in order to create some order in the chaos, allowed for divorce. But, it was not so in the beginning. God never wanted us to have divorce.

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1849386' date='Apr 26 2009, 10:03 PM'][u]you guys say the church is not against divorce but the whole remarried thing but yet the catholic church does not grant divorces. so how can they be ok with divorce if they don't grant it? [/u] Why don't they grnat them if Jesus himself said its ok for a man to divorce his wife for unfaithfulness? Also the passage seems to indictae re-marriage for the adulter is wrong, not so much for the one who was cheated on.[/quote]

The Church cannot grant "divorces" as a divorce cannot break apart a sacramentally valid marriage. I believe what was meant was that the Church understands that some situations (e.g. an abusive spouse) calls for separation or civil divorce. If a person obtains a civil divorce, they do not sin in the eyes of the Church, but they are also still married in the eyes of the Church. A civil divorce does nothing to effect the Church's view of the existing marriage. As such, the divorced need to act as a married person, e.g. no dating, no remarriage.

As St. Paul says, "To the married, however, I give this instruction (not I, but the Lord): a wife should not separate from her husband --and if she does separate she must either remain single or become reconciled to her husband--and a husband should not divorce his wife." (1 Corinth. 7:10-11)

Note, St. Paul says a couple should not divorce, BUT if they must, they are called either to reconcile their relationship or remain single, aka cannot marry.

Edited April 27, 2009 by CatholicCid

[tinytherese]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1842635' date='Apr 21 2009, 03:33 PM']I guess my point is this: Most couples getting married (probably most liberal) are too arrogant to submit to the Chruch's teaching on whatever issue it is (see Obama's election). It doesn't matter what the Priest is telling them, they already have their minds made up. Maybe this is the product of poor liberal catechesis growing up - I dunno... But I think the problem is with the people not the clergy.[/quote]

So very unfortunate! Poor catechesis is definitely such a huge problem.