Suicide

[rachael]

Personally, I have been to the point of suicide more than once before. One time, way back, I even tried to commit the act but ultimately failed to succeed. The thoughts going through my mind at the time were not "I wonder what the Church will think of me...." In fact, they were, "I hope I can just end this misery that is my life...I just want this to end....I cannot stand this...Why am I here?....What am I doing to myself???"

I have suffered from severe depression for years and years. I have had to go to counseling on and off for many years to deal with the personal and family issues that are essentially the root of all of my problems. Other people know why I get depressed and what makes me sad from time...

But, only God knows what is in our heart, not you.

While we're at it, my friend was put into a mental institution on Tuesday. She tends to look for attention, and while she was at her counseling session, she claimed she was suicidal and then some. Her parents and I were the last to see her off.

Was she really suicidal?

I don't know. But she is truly bi-polar and needs the help, as well as the prayers.

Once again, only God truly knows what is in her heart.

Edited April 24, 2009 by rachael

[Guest]

prayers phamily and thanks for sharing. just shows it can effect anyone and you never know who may be down and depressed.

[StColette]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1845715' date='Apr 24 2009, 02:22 AM']Legal continuity. Under the 1917 Code, Christian burial of suicides was forbidden in specie. Many laws were simplified in the 1984 Code, and it would seem that this is one of them. Specific mention of suicides in no longer made but "manifest sinners to whom an ecclesiastical funeral could not be granted without public scandal to the faithful" are mentioned. Thus it would follow that those who wrote the Code considered burial of suicides something that would cause scandal.[/quote]

The Church is very careful of the language she uses, especially when it comes to Canon Law. The Old Code, 1917, specifically addressed suicide as one of the times in which a Christian burial would be denied, because it could cause scandal. Since 1917 we have a new grasp/understanding on suicide victims, many of which suffer/suffered greatly from mental disorders. The Church in the New Code, 1983, removed the specific label of "suicide" because of this new understanding of mental illness and the percentage of those with them that commit suicide. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches the following regarding suicide:

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

[b]Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.[/b]

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

If the Church had meant to imply suicides specifically they would have done so in the New Canon. Afterall Canon 1040 still says "attempted suicide" as an impediment to the religious life or priesthood.

Of the funerals that I know of where the one being buried committed suicide, this part of the Catechism is made quite clear to the family and friends gathered. It reminds them that yes suicide is wrong but we cannot despair for those who have taken their own life. And that we are called to pray for them.

PS: Thank you Rachel for sharing

[Slappo]

[quote name='StColette' post='1846025' date='Apr 24 2009, 10:08 AM']The Church is very careful of the language she uses, especially when it comes to Canon Law. The Old Code, 1917, specifically addressed suicide as one of the times in which a Christian burial would be denied, because it could cause scandal. Since 1917 we have a new grasp/understanding on suicide victims, many of which suffer/suffered greatly from mental disorders. The Church in the New Code, 1983, removed the specific label of "suicide" because of this new understanding of mental illness and the percentage of those with them that commit suicide. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches the following regarding suicide:

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

[b]Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.[/b]

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

If the Church had meant to imply suicides specifically they would have done so in the New Canon. Afterall Canon 1040 still says "attempted suicide" as an impediment to the religious life or priesthood.

Of the funerals that I know of where the one being buried committed suicide, this part of the Catechism is made quite clear to the family and friends gathered. It reminds them that yes suicide is wrong but we cannot despair for those who have taken their own life. And that we are called to pray for them.

PS: Thank you Rachel for sharing [/quote]


My thoughts exactly St. Collette.

In 1917 there were not as many psychological advances in understanding depression etc. These types of technological advancements can be part of the reason for revising non doctrinal Church teachings.

Also for both St. Collette and Ressurexi: If you say that objecively mortal means that it is a mortal sin assuming that the other two requirements are met then it isn't objective because it assumes two subjective requirements. We already have grammar for an "objective mortal sin," and it's called grave matter. To replace "Grave Matter" with "Objective Mortal Sin" is to construe meanings.

[StColette]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1846076' date='Apr 24 2009, 01:53 PM']Also for both St. Collette and Ressurexi: If you say that objecively mortal means that it is a mortal sin assuming that the other two requirements are met then it isn't objective because it assumes two subjective requirements. We already have grammar for an "objective mortal sin," and it's called grave matter. To replace "Grave Matter" with "Objective Mortal Sin" is to construe meanings.[/quote]

You're correct, I should have said grave matter not mortal sin. That's fixed now lol

[rachael]

[quote name='StColette' post='1846025' date='Apr 24 2009, 01:08 PM']PS: Thank you Rachel for sharing [/quote]
No problem. Suicide is not always an easy thing to talk about, especially if you have been near it yourself.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1846076' date='Apr 24 2009, 01:53 PM']My thoughts exactly St. Collette.

In 1917 there were not as many psychological advances in understanding depression etc. These types of technological advancements can be part of the reason for revising non doctrinal Church teachings.

Also for both St. Collette and Ressurexi: If you say that objecively mortal means that it is a mortal sin assuming that the other two requirements are met then it isn't objective because it assumes two subjective requirements. We already have grammar for an "objective mortal sin," and it's called grave matter. To replace "Grave Matter" with "Objective Mortal Sin" is to construe meanings.[/quote]

Not this debate again...

[Slappo]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1846415' date='Apr 24 2009, 05:05 PM']Not this debate again...[/quote]

Which?
To deny that a greater understanding of the human body is not good enough reason to change a discipline is to completely undermine the whole importance of a body-soul composite.

As for objective mortal sin... well.. thats pretty plain obvious. I've never seen objective mortal sin in a church document, but if you can show it to me then I guess it's valid wording. Grave matter of course is used.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1846427' date='Apr 24 2009, 09:23 PM']Which?
To deny that a greater understanding of the human body is not good enough reason to change a discipline is to completely undermine the whole importance of a body-soul composite.

As for objective mortal sin... well.. thats pretty plain obvious. I've never seen objective mortal sin in a church document, but if you can show it to me then I guess it's valid wording. Grave matter of course is used.[/quote]

I was talking about the mortal sin terminology debate.

The term "objective mortal sin" may not be in an ecclesiastical document, but that doesn't make it incorrect. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "When it [envy] wishes grave harm to a neighbor it is a mortal sin" (CCC 2539). The Catechism also says "Thus the extermination of a people, nation, or ethnic minority must be condemned as a mortal sin" (CCC 2313). Here the Church doesn't even use the term "objective," but refers to a specific action as mortally sinful, obviously not taking in to account subjective elements of the sin such as knowledge or consent. To use the term "objective mortal sin" explains that the act is a grave matter but does not judge whether the one who committed the sin had the necessary knowledge or gave the necessary consent. The Catholic Encyclopedia uses similar wording as I did in the article "Sin": "Material and formal sin: This distinction is based upon the difference between the objective elements (object itself, circumstances) and the subjective (advertence to the sinfulness of the act)."

Edited April 25, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Slappo]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1846437' date='Apr 24 2009, 05:35 PM']I was talking about the mortal sin terminology debate.[/quote]


Either way, grave matter, objective mortal sin, it doesn't change anything within this particular debate.

St. Collete's point still has yet to be recognized however and I see it as a major flaw in your argument against Christian burial for suicide cases if you fail to refute it.

[Resurrexi]

The fact that the new code no longer mentions suicide specifically might be because one who commits suicide is almost always a public grave sinner and when the code was published it would be assumed that everyone would be aware of the Christian custom of forbidding ecclesiastical funeral to suicides.

[Holly3278]

I voted no to the first question and yes to the second question.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1848496' date='Apr 26 2009, 01:09 AM']The fact that the new code no longer mentions suicide specifically might be because one who commits suicide is almost always a public grave sinner and when the code was published it would be assumed that everyone would be aware of the Christian custom of forbidding ecclesiastical funeral to suicides.[/quote]
Assumptions again.
Why can't you be satisfied to leave other people's life and death to themselves, their priest, and God? Disciplines of the church can change if and when the church deems necessary. This has changed in understanding, canon, and practice.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1848496' date='Apr 26 2009, 01:09 AM']The fact that the new code no longer mentions suicide specifically might be because one who commits suicide is almost always a public grave sinner and when the code was published it would be assumed that everyone would be aware of the Christian custom of forbidding ecclesiastical funeral to suicides.[/quote]

That's a bit of a reach.

[Lilllabettt]

The decision to commit suicide is irrational ... it runs against our most basic inborn biological drives.

It is impossible to make that decision without being mentally ill.

[StColette]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1848496' date='Apr 26 2009, 12:09 AM']The fact that the new code no longer mentions suicide specifically might be because one who commits suicide is almost always a public grave sinner and when the code was published it would be assumed that everyone would be aware of the Christian custom of forbidding ecclesiastical funeral to suicides.[/quote]

Not according to the Church. As pointed previously from the Catechism there are other issues at hand that could have caused a person to take their own life which would greatly diminish their culpability. I believe that it is because of this new understanding from the Church that the Canon excluded the direct reference to suicides. Because if the Church recognizes that some who committed suicide did so because of mental illness, etc. they would not fall under the category of public grave sinner and be denied a Christian burial. It is because suicides are handled each on an individual basis that the specific mention of them was removed from the list of those who are denied Christian burial. If the person is not guilty of a public grave sin by committing suicide, because of mental illness, then how could we deny them a Christian burial?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1843138' date='Apr 21 2009, 09:45 PM']"Unless they gave some signs of repentance before death." If one is in doubt as to whether there are signs of repentance, there probably aren't any.[/quote]

Nobody is disputing the gravity of the matter.

However, unless you are like St. Padre Pio and have the gift of reading souls (in which case, you should not be spending your time posting here but instead saving up for a plane ticket to Rome to offer up your services to the Pope), you are not privy to what is going through another person's mind at the moment they take their life. With few exceptions (if any), this is not something an ordinary person can objectively determine like you can the number of planets in our solar system.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Norseman82

[Slappo]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1851608' date='Apr 28 2009, 04:45 PM']the number of planets in our solar system.[/quote]

And how long did it take us to determine that? We still can't get it right!

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1851621' date='Apr 28 2009, 07:57 PM']And how long did it take us to determine that? We still can't get it right! [/quote]

Only because scientists are debating the status of Pluto.

But we do know it is more than 4 or 6.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='StColette' post='1851235' date='Apr 28 2009, 11:08 AM']Not according to the Church. As pointed previously from the Catechism there are other issues at hand that could have caused a person to take their own life which would greatly diminish their culpability. I believe that it is because of this new understanding from the Church that the Canon excluded the direct reference to suicides. Because if the Church recognizes that some who committed suicide did so because of mental illness, etc. they would not fall under the category of public grave sinner and be denied a Christian burial. It is because suicides are handled each on an individual basis that the specific mention of them was removed from the list of those who are denied Christian burial. If the person is not guilty of a public grave sin by committing suicide, because of mental illness, then how could we deny them a Christian burial?[/quote]

The insane who committed suicide have not historically been denied Christian burial, nor do I think that they should be.

Edited May 1, 2009 by Resurrexi