Ave!

[AdAltareDei]

Hello All,

I hope this isn't in the wrong section, I am a little confused

My names Jake. I live in Melbourne, Australia. I am 18 years old and doing my final year of highschool.

I'm a practicing Catholic but also openly gay (I hope thats not a problem here). If anyone is interested in how I reconcile my faith and sexuality I am happy to try to explain my thoughts.

My school is in the city, just down the road from a massive church which has six Masses a day. So I often pop in for Mass before or after class.

I LOVE writing. I have a livejournal. Its [url="http://jakeee_b.livejournal.com"]http://jakeee_b.livejournal.com[/url] if anyone is interested.
I like reading, especially Oscar Wilde.
I like music, especially Taking Back Sunday and Crystal Castles.
And I like spending time with friends, especially getting coffee in the city or having a few drinks.

Oh, also I LOVE the extraordinary form of the Mass aswell as the Ordinary form when its done correctly.

Yeah, thats me

Edited April 22, 2009 by AdAltareDei

[TotusTuusMaria]

Welcome to Phatmass, Jake.

That is really neat you have a love for the extraordinary form... me too.

Do you live a homosexual lifestyle?

Hope you come to love pm as much as I do!

God bless.

[Hilde]

Hi Jake, welcome to us.

Yes, I'd like to know if you reconcile those. And what do you consider to be your vocation?

[AdAltareDei]

Thanks guys
The extraordinary form of the Mass really is....extraordinary.
Yes, I do live a homoesxual lifestyle. At the moment I don't have a boyfriend or anything but when I did I still continued to pray and receive Holy Communion.

I've just finished a ton of homework so I probably wont be able to explain my position well but I will just summarize for you guys till later

Basically I have tried being celibate and following the Vatican line on homosexuality. But after years of prayer and study I came to the conclusion that God, who desires nothing more than our salvation, would not make me homosexual and then call me an abomination.

The Second Vatican Council states that our conscience is the ultimate authority. The voice of God echoes in the depth of our conscience, it said. No man should be made to act against his conscience.

I'm not one of those homosexuals thats going to go to Communion with a Rainbow Sash or start badmouthing the Holy Father. The Church has her teachings, but in good conscience I cannot follow them. Infact the Church says that it would be sinful for me to go against my conscience. Don't cheat? Don't lie? Don't engage in promiscuous sex? Sure. I think the Church can and should exhort its followers to avoid a hedonistic lifestyle. Divorce? Contraception? Homosexuality? These are area's where I think a hierarchy made up entirely of celibate males needs to know where to draw the line on its moral teachings, and I think that line is at the bedroom.


As to the biblical condemnations of homosexuality I would point out that it needs to be interpreted in its historical context. Back then homosexuality didn't mean two adults in a consentual, loving relationship. It meant orgies, drunkness, rape and pedophilia.
My homosexual life and the one refered to in the bible are completely different. Deus Caritas Est, God is Love, and I simply don't believe such a self-sacrificing love between two members of the same sex can be evil. No evil comes from the Almighty.

It's hard being a gay Catholic. Hearing hurtful statements come from the Vatican describing me as "instrinsically disordered", but in the end it is God who will judge me, not the Pope.

My vocation?
I always felt called to the priesthood, but I don't think its the life for me anymore. I feel called to be in a commited relationship and adopt a child who otherwise would have one horrible life.

Edited April 22, 2009 by AdAltareDei

[Era Might]

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843391' date='Apr 22 2009, 05:45 AM']My names Jake. I live in Melbourne, Australia. I am 18 years old and doing my final year of highschool.[/quote]
Welcome to Phatmass.

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843407' date='Apr 22 2009, 09:15 AM']The Second Vatican Council states that our conscience is the ultimate authority. The voice of God echoes in the depth of our conscience, it said. No man should be made to act against his conscience.[/quote]
Here is a quote from the Second Vatican Council document "Dignitatis Humanae":

[quote]...In the formation of their consciences, the Christian faithful ought carefully to attend to the sacred and certain doctrine of the Church. For the Church is, by the will of Christ, the teacher of the truth. It is her duty to give utterance to, and authoritatively to teach, that truth which is Christ Himself, and also to declare and confirm by her authority those principles of the moral order which have their origins in human nature itself. ...

--"Dignitatis Humanae" #14[/quote]

[AdAltareDei]

Thanks for the welcome eramight

Thats a nice quote, it correctly states that the faithful must meditate and study the Church's teachings in the formation of their conscience.
An ill formed conscience is horrible.

However, if after study and prayer, one is expected to go against their decision. then don't you think that empties the whole idea of the Primacy of Conscience and the "Dignity of Man" (Dignitatis Humanae)?

Once again, I'm tired and its late, I will try to find some texts tomorrow .

[Hilde]

Dude, you should read Veritatis Splendor.

[AdAltareDei]

I will

Why? Does it contradict what I am saying or......

[prose]

I feel bad that you have this struggle. I can't even imagine what you go through every day.

That being said, I think it is important to recognize that extra-marital sex with anyone of any gender is still a sin. There really is no exception to this rule. Old testament, new, whatever. Sex outside of marriage is not a good thing.

If you follow that train of thought, then it leads to the ongoing argument of whether two men can marry one another in a sacramental marriage. Which they can not.

I am not going to question your conscience, or your formation or anything. I have homosexual friends. I can't imagine falling in love and then being in a position that I can not act on it. However, it is done everyday. Married couples are tempted and yet they do not stray (hopefully). Even if they feel that it is for love of another person, it is still wrong. No matter how strong their feelings are. This is precisely why our faith is not based on our feelings. They can be misleading.

I wanted to also address quickly that you also said you are pro-contraceptives. This is a totally different issue, and I think it is unfair to sweep it into the same pile as homosexuality. Totally different. This isn't an issue of morals, it is an issue of life. If you want to elaborate more fully on this, please feel free to start another thread.

Also, you briefly mentioned divorce. Also a topic for another thread and unrelated to homosexuality.

Welcome to Phatmass, I look forward to hearing more from you

[Archaeology cat]

Jake!

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843407' date='Apr 22 2009, 02:15 PM']Basically I have tried being celibate and following the Vatican line on homosexuality. But after years of prayer and study I came to the conclusion that God, who desires nothing more than our salvation, would not make me homosexual and then call me an abomination.[/quote]
I am wondering how you reconcile your position with the Church's teaching that sex is only to be within marriage. A genuine question, not an attack or anything.

God bless.

[Hilde]

As far as i remember it does. It talks about moral theology. Freedom, conscience et cetera.

I don't know what document you are referring to.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='prose' post='1843427' date='Apr 22 2009, 08:21 AM']I feel bad that you have this struggle. I can't even imagine what you go through every day.

That being said, I think it is important to recognize that extra-marital sex with anyone of any gender is still a sin. There really is no exception to this rule. Old testament, new, whatever. Sex outside of marriage is not a good thing.

If you follow that train of thought, then it leads to the ongoing argument of whether two men can marry one another in a sacramental marriage. Which they can not.

I am not going to question your conscience, or your formation or anything. I have homosexual friends. I can't imagine falling in love and then being in a position that I can not act on it. However, it is done everyday. Married couples are tempted and yet they do not stray (hopefully). Even if they feel that it is for love of another person, it is still wrong. No matter how strong their feelings are. This is precisely why our faith is not based on our feelings. They can be misleading.

Welcome to Phatmass, I look forward to hearing more from you [/quote]
+J.M.J.+
prose said it so much better than i could have. Welcome to phatmass, and God bless you. Have you heard of Courage? not sure if they are around in Australia or not. [url="http://couragerc.net/"]http://couragerc.net/[/url] or [url="http://couragerc.net/WWCAustralia.html"]http://couragerc.net/WWCAustralia.html[/url] for Australian chapters.

[AdAltareDei]

Thankyou for the kind words, I really appreciate them

I haven't looked into divorce and contraception enough to comment extensively. So lumping them in with homosexuality was probably a mistake on my part.
I do find the Church's teaching on the sanctity of human life and the need for procreation to be very beautiful.

My mode of operation is to at first accept the position of the Church and then try and comprehend it so I can give it an interior, intellectual assent also. With homosexuality I simply could not comprehend it and it would be a lie for me to act as if I agreed with the Church when I don't, despite my best efforts.

I'm aware of the "no sex outside of marriage" thing, and I don't believe in gay marriage. Civil unions? Sure. But marriage is a sacrament, and the push for gay marriage comes from the secular world claiming marriage for its own.

As to your comparison of homosexual remaining celibate to a husband or wife tempted by adultery I would just like to point out that adultery is sinful because it harms your spouse and breaks a promise made before God in the sacrament of marriage.

Two homosexuals in a loving relationship doesn't harm any human nor does it break a sacramental promise. So I don't really see any substance in the comparison

The issue of homosexuals in the Church is a new thing for the hierarchy. A few decades ago they never had to deal with it, homosexuals simply remained hidden or married women. My hope is that in the future the Church will be able to acknowledge that sexuality is an issue between the individual and God, who after all is the ultimate judge.

[Jaime]

Jake

Welcome to Phatmass. I'm glad you're here and I hope its for a long long time.

[quote]But after years of prayer and study I came to the conclusion that God, who desires nothing more than our salvation, would not make me homosexual and then call me an abomination.[/quote]

Well you are absolutely correct that God desires our salvation. However, I have to point out that someone has taught you in error. God has never called you an abomination

[quote]It's hard being a gay Catholic. Hearing hurtful statements come from the Vatican describing me as "instrinsically disordered", but in the end it is God who will judge me, not the Pope.[/quote]

Again you need to go back and smack upside the head whoever taught you that in your years of study Jake. The Church does not teach that you are intrinsically disordered. If the Church taught you were intrinsically disordered, it would be teaching that you COULD NOT EVER go to heaven. Ever. When something is intrinsic, it is an aspect that is unchanging.

I hope you stick around Jake and engage the folks here. Like anyplace, you'll find some folks here that are likeable and some who are annoying. But there are folks who have the education and the background to accurately demonstrate what the Church teaches. And from what you've been taught so far, it looks like it would be helpful.

Something else I'd throw out for your consideration Jake. We all struggle with sin. It's our nature. Sometimes we have struggles with what the Church teaches. But whatever my sins are or what struggles I've had with the teachings of the Church, it doesn't create my identity. I have several friends who are gay. None of them are embarrassed by it or ashamed but none of them feel the need to make it the core of their identity either.

On the same note, I have very learned friends who think women should be allowed to be priests, but they don't lead off with it.

My point is that if you have considered priesthood and are concerned about children feeling wanted, there is much much more to you than the idea that you are attracted to men. Those are qualities I (for one) am much more interested in learning about.

[AdAltareDei]

haha thankyou lilred for the courage links.
But I am quite happy being an active homosexual and a practicing Catholic .
Hilde, I am refering to the Church's teaching that conscience is the ultimate authority.
And to contradict it is wrong.

Cardinal Newman once said "I would gladly drink to the pope, but first to conscience and then the pope".

I said it before and I will say it again. God is Love, nothing that comes from God is evil. Nothing. God is the source of all goodness. And a love between two people, regardless of gender, is not evil. I simply do not believe God would condemn me for acting on feelings he gave me.