Ave!

[Dave]

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843449' date='Apr 22 2009, 12:05 PM']Firstly the position that you must always follow a good conscience even if it contradicts the magisterium, however a good conscience doesn't contradict the Church is really a round-about argument. It empties the entire idea of free will or primacy of conscience of any meaning.

1) I must follow my conscience under pain of sin
2) I must conform my conscience to things that in good conscience I can't conform to without disobeying my conscience.

It doesn't work.
Also, I do not define myself by my sexual orientation. It is a very small part of me, but a part of me none the less.

Infact, the most defining thing about me is my faith.[/quote]

Welcome to Phatmass, Jake!

I think you've misunderstood what Brother Adam was trying to say. We must follow a CORRECT conscience, that is, one that is based on the teachings of Christ and His Church. A correct conscience cannot go against Church teaching at all. As for what Vatican II said about conscience, it said we have to follow it even when "honestly mistaken." "Honestly," however, is the key word here. Suppose someone, through no fault of his own, was completely unaware that the Church taught a particular action was morally OK (he mistakenly thought it was bad). So he avoids it. To deliberately do the action in question would be sinful for that person because, even though he objectively isn't doing anything wrong, he subjectively intends to offend God. But as for a person who KNOWS what the Church teaches but then decides that said teaching is wrong, his conscience is mistaken, but not HONESTLY mistaken. It could even be said that that person's conscience is dead.

You know what the Church teaches, so I'm sorry, but you can't very well claim to be acting in good conscience. In fact, if your conscience isn't dead, it would seem to be in intensive care, so to speak. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but committing a sin, rationalizing it, not confessing it, and receiving Holy Communion sacrilegiously are all sure-fire steps to killing one's conscience.

Another thing -- you say the most defining thing about you is your faith. Surely you'd agree that we're called not just to keep the Catholic faith but to SPREAD it. While Christianity and the world are very much opposed to each other, the world nevertheless expects Christians to have moral standards which are FAR HIGHER than everybody else. So if a Christian openly and unrepentantly commits grave sins, one or both of these things will happen:

1. More impressionable people will see the Christian's conduct, wrongly think it's morally acceptable, and perhaps do it themselves, thus endangering their souls.

2. Non-believers and folks weak in their faith will be like, "He's doing such-and-such? I thought he was a Christian!" And then they won't take you seriously as a Christian anymore, which may drive them even further away from Christ and His Church. That's a huge reason given by so many people -- Catholics and Protestants alike -- who don't go to church: They think churches are full of hypocrites! It's faulty reasoning, I know, but that's how they feel.

[Dave]

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843447' date='Apr 22 2009, 12:00 PM']Being in a loving relationship with someone of the same sex doesn't harm anyone. So any comparison (which sorry, you WERE making, despite your edit) is trivial.[/quote]

If it's an illicit loving relationship (be it adultery, homosexual, fornication, pedophilia, etc.), then yes it does harm people. It harms your soul and the other person's soul.

[kenrockthefirst]

Hi, it looks like my [post="1843444"]previous post[/post] on this subject got passed over in the flurry of responses, so let me posit my question again:

[quote]Based on the logic of your position, as I see it, two homosexuals in a sexual relationship cannot partake in either the unitive or procreative components of the sex act, since they cannot participate in a sacramental marriage and, physiologically, cannot reproduce. What's left, then, is an animal act. Are you saying that it's OK for homosexuals to engage in sexual activity that represents physical gratification at the most elemental level - which is somehow a "free pass" since they can't get married nor reproduce - but that heterosexuals outside of a marriage relationship don't have that option?[/quote]

[Seven77]

Welcome Jake!

I want to say something to you from a slightly different angle.

The Church is a loving Mother who wants the good of her children. We cannot know about faith or morals better than her.

Try giving the assent of faith… even if you don’t understand it. You understand and comprehend the mystery of the Trinity? Nobody does in this life. May I suggest to you that the teaching of the Church in this regard is a mystery? Yet… we do know something about the Trinity because it has been revealed to us.

Jesus teachings on the Eucharist caused many to leave him because they didn’t understand how it could be. His disciples although they didn’t fully understand or comprehend did not leave him. It was a great faith they had. And later Jesus did reveal to them something of the mystery. Their faith was rewarded. You will, I have no doubt, have your faith rewarded and will come to know something about the mystery you struggle with. But it requires patience.

This is very important because sometimes the devil disguises himself as an angel of light. He is very tricky and often gets us to fall into pride. Giving assent of faith even when you don’t understand it is an act of utter humility. Humility is the virtue that unlocks and explains all of the rest.

I know that this is a hard saying. In this life nothing is easy. It’s about carrying the cross with Jesus. But you know what? I know that you can persevere to the end.

Just trust Jesus. Trust him to the point of ‘foolishness’. And please trust his Church? He did establish it himself… out of his pierced side. He won’t steer you wrong… And neither will she. She cannot. You will see and you will be happy.

== Jesus said in John's Gospel "if you love me you will keep my commandments" and he also, in another place, said to his Church "he who hears you, hears me" ===

[Lilllabettt]

You know what? I have gay friends. I have a lot of respect for them. I have zero respect for what you've posted here. Zero.

There are people who don't understand the Church's teaching, but they live it, even though it costs them much, because they trust the Church.

There are people who don't understand the Church's teaching, and feel they cannot live it, for whatever reason. But they respect the Church's rights enough to refrain from Holy Communion.

Every time you receive the Eucharist you are LYING. By receiving Communion you are telling everyone around you "I submit and believe everything the Church teaches," but the reality is, you don't. It's a lie. My Father is a Protestant; if he received Communion, it would make him a liar. Which is why he doesn't do it.

The flippancy with which you say all of what you do is frankly a slap in the face to the multitude of men and women, through out the ages, who have heroically submitted themselves to the Church. As if their blood and sweat and tears was a pointless, unnecessary waste.

[dauntingknight]

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843447' date='Apr 22 2009, 11:00 AM']Being in a loving relationship with someone of the same sex doesn't harm anyone. So any comparison (which sorry, you WERE making, despite your edit) is trivial.


I'm sorry, I hate sounding mean or horrible, its just comparisons like this carry no substance at all.[/quote]
Welcome to phatmass!

I just want to add that just because something doesn't harm (or appear to harm) another does not make it alright.
Masturbation does not (directly) harm another; the Church teaches that it is not alright.
Being intemperate in eating does not (directly) harm another; the Church teaches that it is not alright.
Failing to acknowledge that Jesus is true God and saviour of the human race does not (directly) harm another; the Church teaches that it is not alright.
And so forth.
You have a fallacious line of logic in that you think that God wouldn't create you to be attracted to those of the same sex if he didn't want you to act on these feelings.
By this logic, God wouldn't call anyone to be priests or sisters/nuns or monk, or any other sort of avowed celibates. You don't think that any of those groups are attracted to others or have sexual desires? We all do - that's natures part in hard-wiring us. We're all called to be chaste in our lifestyles. For single people (either temporarily or permanently single), straight, gay, or otherwise, that chastity means to abstain from sex and sexual arousal. God created me so that I will either be married or be called to the priesthood. I don't know which it is, but for the meantime, He's calling me to be chaste. (Do I always live up to that? To say I do would be lying. We all have slipups. But part of repentance is resolving to do your best not to repeat those sins.) He's calling you, whether you hear or listen to it or not, to be chaste as well.

As someone who has struggled with sins against chastity with the same sex, I can see that it would be a difficult cross to bear. I'll pray for you, brother, that you may hear and respond to your call to chastity, and that we both might become more resilient against our demons and resist the temptation to sin.

Pax Christi,
Mitch

[homeschoolmom]

Hi Jake. I'm too tired to post much more than "Hi."

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1843641' date='Apr 22 2009, 05:05 PM']As someone who has struggled with sins against chastity with the same sex, I can see that it would be a difficult cross to bear.[/quote]
My mistake, this is supposed to read "opposite", not "same" sex.

[lost_in_this_world]

hey


Australia is cool i almost went there for an internship but it didnt work out. very cool.

[doe-jo]

Hi! and welcome.

The EF is truly extraordinary. I wish it was offered more especially in my diocese.

[The Bus Station]

Welcome to the Pham, Jake

If you've read all of these posts (I sure didn't), then you're probably tired of reading so I'll be brief: If you really believe with all your heart that you are doing nothing wrong by acting on your homosexual desires, than I don't see what the need is to even mention your sexual orientation in the first place. I didn't sign up and say "Hey guys! I'm heterosexual!" That's just silly. I wonder why you thought it was so important to tell everyone from the get-go. Surely you realized that you were [i]asking[/i] for orthodox Catholics to present you with Biblical and Catechetic arguments concerning homosexuality that hold much more water than the conclusions that you've come to basically on your own.

I will certainly be praying for you, that you may seek Christ's will above all else; He must increase, we must decrease.

Edited April 22, 2009 by The Bus Station

[Resurrexi]

Hi. I attend the extraordinary form as well. Make note, homosexual actions are contrary to the natural law.

[AdAltareDei]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1843635' date='Apr 22 2009, 03:57 PM']You know what? I have gay friends. I have a lot of respect for them. I have zero respect for what you've posted here. Zero.

There are people who don't understand the Church's teaching, but they live it, even though it costs them much, because they trust the Church.

There are people who don't understand the Church's teaching, and feel they cannot live it, for whatever reason. But they respect the Church's rights enough to refrain from Holy Communion.

Every time you receive the Eucharist you are LYING. By receiving Communion you are telling everyone around you "I submit and believe everything the Church teaches," but the reality is, you don't. It's a lie. My Father is a Protestant; if he received Communion, it would make him a liar. Which is why he doesn't do it.

The flippancy with which you say all of what you do is frankly a slap in the face to the multitude of men and women, through out the ages, who have heroically submitted themselves to the Church. As if their blood and sweat and tears was a pointless, unnecessary waste.[/quote]

Okay.
Firstly, when you post I would prefer if you could skip the inflamatory language and try to return the respect I've been showing. Sound good?

Secondly, I do understand the Church's teaching on homosexuality. I just believe it is wrong. It is not infallible and frankly a hierarchy made up of celibate, heterosexual males most of who have never been in a commited relationship has no competency to dictate to me who I can or can't fall in love with. The Church's teaching on homosexuality is based on the the few scriptural references. All of which do not refer to loving, homosexual relationships but rather promiscuity, drunkeness and rape.

I don't know where you get off telling me I am lying when I go to Communion, it really is an insult. For the record I do believe all the doctrines of the Catholic Church. There is not one thing that the Church has proclaimed with infallibility that I deny.

Nor am I telling everyone else around me that I submit to everything the Church says when I receive Communion, as you say. For me Holy Communion is an intensely personal moment. It is between me and Christ. It has nothing to do with the people around me. Neither does it have anything to do with you.

Now, I think before you go writing wild posts accusing me of lying and being un-worthy to receive Our Lord in the Eucharist you should go have a look at your own sins before making such rash judgments.

Edited April 23, 2009 by AdAltareDei

[mcts]

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843878' date='Apr 22 2009, 08:06 PM']Now, I think before you go writing wild posts accusing me of lying and being un-worthy to receive Our Lord in the Eucharist you should go have a look at your own sins before making such rash judgments.[/quote]


I do look at my own sins before I take communion. If I have done something serious, I refrain from taking communion. If I am going through a rough time and I'm having doubts, i refrain from recieving communion. I make sure that I am ok to take communion before I do. Please dont' assume that because I sin that I also recieve communion unworthily.

[AdAltareDei]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1843499' date='Apr 22 2009, 11:36 AM']Hello,

You must follow your conscience to the point that it is properly informed[b]. If your conscience is ill formed, you owe it to yourself and to your own dignity as a child of God to submit yourself to the will of God and correct your own conscience.[/b] That is Church teaching. Catholics are called to follow all Catholic doctrine, faith and morals, because as was mentioned, it is infallible. It comes from God who revealed himself to man and gave us the Deposit of Faith which the Church defends. Christ gave us the Church through the Holy Spirit to lead us to all truth. Acting out on homosexual desires is a sin, just as acting out on the desire to masturbate or look at pornography is a sin. It is a cross you bear, not who you are. It is self destructive and contrary to both divine and natural law. It is a sin because it takes a greater good, the sacrament and covenant of matrimony, and uses it for a lesser purpose (following our fleshly desires). Scripture, tradition, natural law, and divine law are all unequivocally clear.[/quote]

I have studied the Church's teachings on the matter. I have tried to conform my conscience to them but cannot. I have explained why I have been unable to accept the legitimacy of the Church's arguments in this area.

Nothing can be forced on the conscience. I have tried to give the Churchs position on homosexuality an interior, intellectual assent. However my reason and logic prevent me from doing so. I am not using conscience as an excuse to go do whatever Iwant, I am not reducing the moral law to some feel good do what you want relativism. I have tried, a lot and over many years, to give assent to the Churchs teachings but still cannot.

Thus I am bound to follow my conscience, which says I am not doing anything wrong.
Even if objectively I am wrong, I do not believe that a merciful God would condemn me after I have tried so hard to accept his Churchs teaching on the issue.

[AdAltareDei]

[quote name='mcts' post='1843881' date='Apr 22 2009, 07:11 PM']I do look at my own sins before I take communion. If I have done something serious, I refrain from taking communion. If I am going through a rough time and I'm having doubts, i refrain from recieving communion. I make sure that I am ok to take communion before I do. Please dont' assume that because I sin that I also recieve communion unworthily.[/quote]

None of that post was directed at you, so I don't know why you're replying

[mcts]

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843885' date='Apr 22 2009, 08:17 PM']None of that post was directed at you, so I don't know why you're replying [/quote]

I was assuming that you were responding to any of the previous posters that questioned you taking communion. I believe that i was the first one. Plus, this is a forum. anyone can respond

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843878' date='Apr 22 2009, 08:06 PM']For the record I do believe all the doctrines of the Catholic Church. There is not one thing that the Church has proclaimed with infallibility that I deny.[/quote]

Just because the Church has not defined a truth infallibly doesn't mean that it is a doctrine.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Resurrexi

[AdAltareDei]

I have been asked a lot of questions, now I have a question for you guys


The Catechism states

"1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."53 "

That is what I have done. I am acting in accordance with my conscience.

Now some of you have been saying its not a properly formed conscience. Why? Because it disagree's with the Church. Now this argument really empties the idea of conscience of any substance.
We must not be forced to act against our conscience?
We must conform our conscience to the Church?
To conform my conscience to the Church would be "acti(ing) contrary to his (my) conscience".

I have tried, believe me. But I cannot. Reason and logic simply will not let me accept the Church's teachings.

Secondly, in the catechism it states a properly formed conscience

"1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord's Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.55 "

It's not like I have completely ignored the Church. I have done all this. I have put my faith in God, prayed, examined myself "before the Lords cross" (literally, before the Lord during my weekly holy hour) and I have studied and understand the authoritative teachings of the Church.

My conscience is as properly formed as it can be on the issue. And I still cannot give my assent to the Churchs position.


NOW MY QUESTION IS (after too much typing )

Having done all I can to educate my conscience in this matter. After prayer, study, speaking with priests and totally abandoning myself to the will of God I STILL cannot accept the Church's teachings what must I obey:

The Church or my conscience?


Holy Mother Church says I must obey my conscience, what about you?



PS. If you're going to reply to this, please don't avoid the question. Don't give me another spiel about "forming a good conscience", I have already shown you that I have done all that the Catechisms requires me to do. The Catechism doesn't state that a properly formed conscience will never question the Church, so you shouldn't either.
Thankyou

Edited April 23, 2009 by AdAltareDei