Ave!

[mcts]

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843439' date='Apr 22 2009, 09:42 AM']haha thankyou lilred for the courage links.
But I am quite happy being an active homosexual and a practicing Catholic .
Hilde, I am refering to the Church's teaching that conscience is the ultimate authority.
And to contradict it is wrong.

Cardinal Newman once said "I would gladly drink to the pope, but first to conscience and then the pope".

I said it before and I will say it again. God is Love, nothing that comes from God is evil. Nothing. God is the source of all goodness. And a love between two people, regardless of gender, is not evil. I simply do not believe God would condemn me for acting on feelings he gave me.[/quote]

I have the feeling sometimes that i would like to kill my brother because he's annoying. I also have the feeling that i would like to steal the water from the person next to me because i'm thirsty.

just because i have these feelings doesn't mean that they are from God or that i should act on them.

edit: I'm NOT comparing homosexuality to murder or theft.

Edited April 22, 2009 by mcts

[goldenchild17]

welcome to PM bro. My only suggestion is don't run away too soon . It looks like you're going to get quite a bit of differing opinions on this while you're on this board, especially with you being so open so soon (I'm not saying that you shouldn't be, just nothing that it's going to cause controversy on this board as it seems to have already done haha)

Anyways, just stick it out on here as long as you can and learn what you can, even if you have you're mind made up in this area maybe there are other areas of Catholicism that you do want to learn more about. Some people here can be pretty helpful in that.

Interesting viewpoint on V2 documents btw.

peace

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843435' date='Apr 22 2009, 09:32 AM']Thankyou for the kind words, I really appreciate them

I haven't looked into divorce and contraception enough to comment extensively. So lumping them in with homosexuality was probably a mistake on my part.
I do find the Church's teaching on the sanctity of human life and the need for procreation to be very beautiful.

My mode of operation is to at first accept the position of the Church and then try and comprehend it so I can give it an interior, intellectual assent also. With homosexuality I simply could not comprehend it and it would be a lie for me to act as if I agreed with the Church when I don't, despite my best efforts.

I'm aware of the "no sex outside of marriage" thing, and I don't believe in gay marriage. Civil unions? Sure. But marriage is a sacrament, and the push for gay marriage comes from the secular world claiming marriage for its own.

As to your comparison of homosexual remaining celibate to a husband or wife tempted by adultery I would just like to point out that adultery is sinful because it harms your spouse and breaks a promise made before God in the sacrament of marriage.

Two homosexuals in a loving relationship doesn't harm any human nor does it break a sacramental promise. So I don't really see any substance in the comparison

The issue of homosexuals in the Church is a new thing for the hierarchy. A few decades ago they never had to deal with it, homosexuals simply remained hidden or married women. My hope is that in the future the Church will be able to acknowledge that sexuality is an issue between the individual and God, who after all is the ultimate judge.[/quote]
Hi, Jake, and welcome. Others can deal with this better than me but let me put in my two cents for what they're worth.

My understanding is that the sex act is both unitive and procreative. Unitive in the sense that it mystically represents the union of Christ and His Church within the context of marriage, i.e. the Church is the Bride of Christ; procreative in the sense that it can, obviously, result in new life.

Based on the logic of your position, as I see it, two homosexuals in a sexual relationship cannot partake in either the unitive or procreative components of the sex act, since they cannot participate in a sacramental marriage and, physiologically, cannot reproduce. What's left, then, is an animal act. Are you saying that it's OK for homosexuals to engage in sexual activity that represents physical gratification at the most elemental level - which is somehow a "free pass" since they can't get married nor reproduce - but that heterosexuals outside of a marriage relationship don't have that option?

[Brother Adam]

Welcome aboard the Phatmass express.

Sin does not come from God.

On conscience: "A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. [u]Yet, it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed[/u]." - CCC 1790

I'm sorry friend, but your conscience is ill-informed. Acting out on same sex attraction is no less a sin than a married man acting out on committing adultery, viewing pornography, or masturbating. Any attraction to other men should not define who you are. You are a child of God, called to holiness. Acting out sinful desires is not a path to God or to holiness.

[quote]2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. [u]Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.[/u]

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.[/quote]

You cannot reconcile the Catholic faith to living a sinful lifestyle.

[AdAltareDei]

[quote name='mcts' post='1843441' date='Apr 22 2009, 10:51 AM']I have the feeling sometimes that i would like to kill my brother because he's annoying. I also have the feeling that i would like to steal the water from the person next to me because i'm thirsty.

just because i have these feelings doesn't mean that they are from God or that i should act on them.

edit: I'm NOT comparing homosexuality to murder or theft.[/quote]

Comparisons like this really get to me. Its the same with the one made to adultery.

Killing your brother, stealing from someone and cheating on your spouse all cause pain and suffering to others.

They contradict the commandment to love thy neighbour.

Being in a loving relationship with someone of the same sex doesn't harm anyone. So any comparison (which sorry, you WERE making, despite your edit) is trivial.


I'm sorry, I hate sounding mean or horrible, its just comparisons like this carry no substance at all.

[AdAltareDei]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1843446' date='Apr 22 2009, 10:59 AM']Welcome aboard the Phatmass express.

Sin does not come from God.

On conscience: "A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. [u]Yet, it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed[/u]." - CCC 1790

I'm sorry friend, but your conscience is ill-informed. Acting out on same sex attraction is no less a sin than a married man acting out on committing adultery, viewing pornography, or masturbating. Any attraction to other men should not define who you are. You are a child of God, called to holiness. Acting out sinful desires is not a path to God or to holiness.



You cannot reconcile the Catholic faith to living a sinful lifestyle.[/quote]

Firstly the position that you must always follow a good conscience even if it contradicts the magisterium, however a good conscience doesn't contradict the Church is really a round-about argument. It empties the entire idea of free will or primacy of conscience of any meaning.

1) I must follow my conscience under pain of sin
2) I must conform my conscience to things that in good conscience I can't conform to without disobeying my conscience.

It doesn't work.
Also, I do not define myself by my sexual orientation. It is a very small part of me, but a part of me none the less.

Infact, the most defining thing about me is my faith.

Edited April 22, 2009 by AdAltareDei

[mcts]

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843447' date='Apr 22 2009, 10:00 AM']Comparisons like this really get to me. Its the same with the one made to adultery.

Killing your brother, stealing from someone and cheating on your spouse all cause pain and suffering to others.

They contradict the commandment to love thy neighbour.

Being in a loving relationship with someone of the same sex doesn't harm anyone. So any comparison (which sorry, you WERE making, despite your edit) is trivial.


I'm sorry, I hate sounding mean or horrible, its just comparisons like this carry no substance at all.[/quote]

I suppose i was comparing it, but i never meant to say that i was saying that it was on the same "level"

The point of what i was trying to say by making that comparison, though, was that feelings aren't reliable. Just because I have these feelings does not mean i should act on them because i know that they are wrong.

also, sin of any kind hurts the church.

[mcts]

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843449' date='Apr 22 2009, 10:05 AM']Firstly the position that you must always follow a good conscience even if it contradicts the magisterium, however a good conscience doesn't contradict the Church is really a round-about argument. It empties the entire idea of free will or primacy of conscience of any meaning.[/quote]

free will is the ability to choose whether to do something that is right or wrong. it's more of a "this is what you're supposed to do, but if you dont' want to follow it, you don't have to, but you will suffer the consequences if you don't" kinda thing.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843447' date='Apr 22 2009, 10:00 AM']Being in a loving relationship with someone of the same sex doesn't harm anyone. So any comparison (which sorry, you WERE making, despite your edit) is trivial.[/quote]
How do you know it doesn't harm anyone?

Just because something feels good right now does not mean it is not doing damage that will only become evident years in the future.

Pain is not the only indicator of harm. Sometimes things that cause severe damage initially feel good.

[Sirklawd]

Welcome! And thanks for opening yourself up so quickly to a bunch of strangers on the inernet lol. Like its been mentioned, in all corners of the internet there will be people that piss you off. Hopefully that doesn't happen too much here. Most everyone really tries to go out of their way to be compassionate.

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843407' date='Apr 22 2009, 08:15 AM']Basically I have tried being celibate and following the Vatican line on homosexuality. But after years of prayer and study I came to the conclusion that God, who desires nothing more than our salvation, would not make me homosexual and then call me an abomination.[/quote]

I'm not too sure about trying to be celibate, but have you tried to be chaste? Chastity is one of those things that has gotten a total bad-rap. Many people think its a synonym for abstinence, but its not. It's about the correct understanding of love, and how to have relationships that dont hurt the people involved.

Now don't read that im saying homosexual relationships don't have "correct" love. What I'm saying is that there is a whole lot that goes into a relationship (and should) before sex. Chastity is about that. Sex is a big deal. Which I think you would agree. Two people give everything to eachother, but that means the stakes are very high and the chances for people to be used are huge. Chastity is about not being used and making sure that we participate in the true love given to us by the Father. A healthy study of chastity is recommended for everyone in a relationship. (believe me, most heterosexual relationships are screwed up because of people going in for the wrong reasons)

That's why the church cares about sex and relationships so much, because its about people. Their whole beings. This is one of the reasons why i love the catholic church. It alone respects and understands the true magic of sex when the rest of the world treats it as a toy. And no other man taught it better than John Paul II. Have you read love & responsibility? It's great. (lol its also basically what chastity is - love, with responsibility. I coulda saved myself writing that previous paragraph if i just said that lol)

[url="http://www.catholicculture.com/jp2_on_l&r.pdf"]http://www.catholicculture.com/jp2_on_l&r.pdf[/url]

Finally, its been mentioned before. But be VERY careful about having you conscious be your only judge of actions. This goes way beyond just homosexual acts. I'm sure you dont mean anything by it, but that train of thought is an open door to the relativism that is strangling popular thought. You'd be surprised how quickly you get to "If it feels good, do it". And no one needs to point out how silly that is.

[AdAltareDei]

Yes, but feelings are wrong for a reason. Not just for the sake of being wrong.
The feelings you described are all wrong because they harm others.
Feeling love towards another man (or woman) does not harm others, was my point.

Hopefully this issue isn't too divisive.
I'll try to remember when speaking to you that God is the ultimate judge, as well as call to mind my own sins.
Hopefully when speaking to me you will do the same

[AdAltareDei]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1843455' date='Apr 22 2009, 11:14 AM']How do you know it doesn't harm anyone?

Just because something feels good right now does not mean it is not doing damage that will only become evident years in the future.

Pain is not the only indicator of harm. Sometimes things that cause severe damage initially feel good.[/quote]

You can't just say "How do you know it doesn't harm anyone?" Theres no proof its harming anyone so it isn't.

I could say the exact same thing about heterosexual marriages.
Sorry, but to say "it may harm someone. I don't know who, where or why but it MAY" is just stupid.

[AdAltareDei]

[quote name='Sirklawd' post='1843456' date='Apr 22 2009, 11:15 AM']Welcome! And thanks for opening yourself up so quickly to a bunch of strangers on the inernet lol. Like its been mentioned, in all corners of the internet there will be people that piss you off. Hopefully that doesn't happen too much here. Most everyone really tries to go out of their way to be compassionate.



I'm not too sure about trying to be celibate, but have you tried to be chaste? Chastity is one of those things that has gotten a total bad-rap. Many people think its a synonym for abstinence, but its not. It's about the correct understanding of love, and how to have relationships that dont hurt the people involved.

Now don't read that im saying homosexual relationships don't have "correct" love. What I'm saying is that there is a whole lot that goes into a relationship (and should) before sex. Chastity is about that. Sex is a big deal. Which I think you would agree. Two people give everything to eachother, but that means the stakes are very high and the chances for people to be used are huge. Chastity is about not being used and making sure that we participate in the true love given to us by the Father. A healthy study of chastity is recommended for everyone in a relationship. (believe me, most heterosexual relationships are screwed up because of people going in for the wrong reasons)

That's why the church cares about sex and relationships so much, because its about people. Their whole beings. This is one of the reasons why i love the catholic church. It alone respects and understands the true magic of sex when the rest of the world treats it as a toy. And no other man taught it better than John Paul II. Have you read love & responsibility? It's great. (lol its also basically what chastity is - love, with responsibility. I coulda saved myself writing that previous paragraph if i just said that lol)

[url="http://www.catholicculture.com/jp2_on_l&r.pdf"]http://www.catholicculture.com/jp2_on_l&r.pdf[/url]

Finally, its been mentioned before. But be VERY careful about having you conscious be your only judge of actions. This goes way beyond just homosexual acts. I'm sure you dont mean anything by it, but that train of thought is an open door to the relativism that is strangling popular thought. You'd be surprised how quickly you get to "If it feels good, do it". And no one needs to point out how silly that is.[/quote]

These are the posts I like
Yes, I love the Church's teaching on chastity for the same reasons you do. She really does know, for the most part, what is good for humans.
I wrote "celibacy" not chastity because the Vatican line is that the homosexual man must commit himself to alife of celibacy and remain single, which I do not agree with.

It's late, I'm surprised at how quick everyones posting here. I can't keep up.
I have two 3 hour lectures tomorrow, I am going to get some sleep.

I will reply to everything tomorrow before or after school

Goodnight all

[AdAltareDei]

[quote name='Sirklawd' post='1843456' date='Apr 22 2009, 11:15 AM']Welcome! And thanks for opening yourself up so quickly to a bunch of strangers on the inernet lol. Like its been mentioned, in all corners of the internet there will be people that piss you off. Hopefully that doesn't happen too much here. Most everyone really tries to go out of their way to be compassionate.



I'm not too sure about trying to be celibate, but have you tried to be chaste? Chastity is one of those things that has gotten a total bad-rap. Many people think its a synonym for abstinence, but its not. It's about the correct understanding of love, and how to have relationships that dont hurt the people involved.

Now don't read that im saying homosexual relationships don't have "correct" love. What I'm saying is that there is a whole lot that goes into a relationship (and should) before sex. Chastity is about that. Sex is a big deal. Which I think you would agree. Two people give everything to eachother, but that means the stakes are very high and the chances for people to be used are huge. Chastity is about not being used and making sure that we participate in the true love given to us by the Father. A healthy study of chastity is recommended for everyone in a relationship. (believe me, most heterosexual relationships are screwed up because of people going in for the wrong reasons)

That's why the church cares about sex and relationships so much, because its about people. Their whole beings. This is one of the reasons why i love the catholic church. It alone respects and understands the true magic of sex when the rest of the world treats it as a toy. And no other man taught it better than John Paul II. Have you read love & responsibility? It's great. (lol its also basically what chastity is - love, with responsibility. I coulda saved myself writing that previous paragraph if i just said that lol)

[url="http://www.catholicculture.com/jp2_on_l&r.pdf"]http://www.catholicculture.com/jp2_on_l&r.pdf[/url]

Finally, its been mentioned before. But be VERY careful about having you conscious be your only judge of actions. This goes way beyond just homosexual acts. I'm sure you dont mean anything by it, but that train of thought is an open door to the relativism that is strangling popular thought. You'd be surprised how quickly you get to "If it feels good, do it". And no one needs to point out how silly that is.[/quote]

These are the posts I like
Yes, I love the Church's teaching on chastity for the same reasons you do. She really does know, for the most part, what is good for humans.
I wrote "celibacy" not chastity because the Vatican line is that the homosexual man must commit himself to alife of celibacy and remain single, which I do not agree with.

It's late, I'm surprised at how quick everyones posting here. I can't keep up.
I have two 3 hour lectures tomorrow, I am going to get some sleep.

I will reply to everything tomorrow before or after school

Goodnight all

[mcts]

[quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843459' date='Apr 22 2009, 10:18 AM']You can't just say "How do you know it doesn't harm anyone?" Theres no proof its harming anyone so it isn't.

I could say the exact same thing about heterosexual marriages.
Sorry, but to say "it may harm someone. I don't know who, where or why but it MAY" is just stupid.[/quote]

It harms the God and the church.


this goes back to kinda the early parts of this thread.

but did you know that when you take communion and you say "Amen" (which means i believe, in case you didn't know) you are not just saying that you believe the Christ is physically present in the Eucharist, but you are also saying that you believe in everything the church teaches, and the stance on homosexual relationships is a big part of that.