Resurrexi Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) BTW, it is incredibly rare to find a lover of the extraordinary form who is heterodox to the left (e.g. one who believes in the validity of female ordination or the morality of homosexual acts). Usually heterodox traditionalists content themselves with denying the teachings of the Second Vatican Council, the validity of the newer form of the Roman Rite. Edited April 23, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 [quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843878' date='Apr 22 2009, 08:06 PM']Nor am I telling everyone else around me that I submit to everything the Church says when I receive Communion, as you say.[/quote] Question: Have you ever sat and reflected upon what being in "Communion" with the Church means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) [quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843891' date='Apr 22 2009, 08:34 PM']I have been asked a lot of questions, now I have a question for you guys The Catechism states "1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."53 " That is what I have done. I am acting in accordance with my conscience. Now some of you have been saying its not a properly formed conscience. Why? Because it disagree's with the Church. Now this argument really empties the idea of conscience of any substance. We must not be forced to act against our conscience? We must conform our conscience to the Church? To conform my conscience to the Church would be "acti(ing) contrary to his (my) conscience". I have tried, believe me. But I cannot. Reason and logic simply will not let me accept the Church's teachings. Secondly, in the catechism it states a properly formed conscience "1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord's Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.55 " It's not like I have completely ignored the Church. I have done all this. I have put my faith in God, prayed, examined myself "before the Lords cross" (literally, before the Lord during my weekly holy hour) and I have studied and understand the authoritative teachings of the Church. My conscience is as properly formed as it can be on the issue. And I still cannot give my assent to the Churchs position. KNOW MY QUESTION IS (after to much typing ) Having done all I can to educate my conscience in this matter. After prayer, study, speaking with priests and totally abandoning myself to the will of God I STILL cannot accept the Church's teachings what must I obey: The Church or my conscience? Holy Mother Church says I must obey my conscience, what about you?[/quote] You do realize that you are using the same Catechism whose authority you explicitly deny (at least in matters pertaining to sodomy) to justify your position? Edited April 23, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 [quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843878' date='Apr 22 2009, 07:06 PM']I don't know where you get off telling me I am lying when I go to Communion, it really is an insult. For the record I do believe all the doctrines of the Catholic Church. There is not one thing that the Church has proclaimed with infallibility that I deny.[/quote] I'm pretty sure that the Church teaching that sex outside of marriage is wrong is an infallible teaching, no? It falls under the ordinary and universal teaching of the magisterium right? Maybe one of our Church scholars can clear this up for you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 [quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843878' date='Apr 22 2009, 09:06 PM']Okay. Firstly, when you post I would prefer if you could skip the inflamatory language and try to return the respect I've been showing. Sound good? Secondly, I do understand the Church's teaching on homosexuality. I just believe it is wrong. It is not infallible and frankly a hierarchy made up of celibate, heterosexual males most of who have never been in a commited relationship has no competency to dictate to me who I can or can't fall in love with. The Church's teaching on homosexuality is based on the the few scriptural references. All of which do not refer to loving, homosexual relationships but rather promiscuity, drunkeness and rape. I don't know where you get off telling me I am lying when I go to Communion, it really is an insult. For the record I do believe all the doctrines of the Catholic Church. There is not one thing that the Church has proclaimed with infallibility that I deny. Nor am I telling everyone else around me that I submit to everything the Church says when I receive Communion, as you say. For me Holy Communion is an intensely personal moment. It is between me and Christ. It has nothing to do with the people around me. Neither does it have anything to do with you. Now, I think before you go writing wild posts accusing me of lying and being un-worthy to receive Our Lord in the Eucharist you should go have a look at your own sins before making such rash judgments.[/quote] What does the word Communion mean? Communion with ... who? God, yes. And each other. The Eucharist is OUR sign of unity. The Protestants have hand holding at the Our Father, we have the Eucharist. For Catholics, Communion is NOT a private act. It is the ultimate sign of unity, and if you are in fact "not united" because you don't believe this teaching or that teaching ... then receiving Communion is telling a lie. The Church's teaching is based on the Tradition which has been passed down to us from our fathers. It really takes something for an 18 year old kid to "study" and decide that he knows so much more than the learned men who came before him. Jesus was a celibate, heterosexual male so I don't hold that against anyone and neither should you. The Church says that those who are in mortal sin should not take Communion. The same Church says that choosing the gay lifestyle is a mortal sin. People who choose the gay lifestyle should not be receiving Communion. You don't agree with that rule? Fine. Don't agree with it, but observe it. It's a matter of respect. I don't believe in the rule requiring women to cover their heads when they enter a mosque. When I visit a mosque, I cover my head. The Eastern Orthodox do not believe Roman Catholics should receive communion at their Divine Liturgy. The Catholic Church doesn't have a problem with it, but the Orthodox do. So when I attend an Orthodox service, I do not receive their Communion, OUT OF RESPECT. You don't think I'm returning you the respect you've shown, but I see your entire attitude and approach as disrespectful. It is disrespectful to the people I know who have Same Sex Attraction and struggle heroically to accept this teaching and live it out. Why are you assuming that I don't look at my own sins? I do look at my own sins, and when I find something wrong, I refrain from Communion. I went 6 months last year not receiving Communion, not because I was "openly" doing something against Church teaching, but because I did not feel I was "in union." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissyP89 Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 What awesome displays of charity and compassion we've shown to the new guy on his first day! I bet he really wants to live chastely now. Admonishing the sinner is a work of mercy, yes, I do it and would expect anyone here to do the same, but name-calling and condescension in the process isn't the right way to go about that. I'm just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 [quote name='MissyP89' post='1843908' date='Apr 22 2009, 09:49 PM']What awesome displays of charity and compassion we've shown to the new guy on his first day! I bet he really wants to live chastely now. Admonishing the sinner is a work of mercy, yes, I do it and would expect anyone here to do the same, but name-calling and condescension in the process isn't the right way to go about that. I'm just sayin'.[/quote] I think a lot of people have shown him charity and compassion. I'm the only one whose really sticking it to him. I realize I'm not being very, um, understanding. But I am not letting anyone get away with diminishing the heroism of people who do the right thing and suffer for it. Getting on a message board and saying "it doesn't matter, you can be Catholic and do this" is doing that. It's an insult and it's disrespectful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdAltareDei Posted April 23, 2009 Author Share Posted April 23, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1843894' date='Apr 22 2009, 08:35 PM']You do realize that you are using the same Catechism whose authority you explicitly deny (at least in matters pertaining to sodomy) to justify your position?[/quote] Thats avoiding the question. Want to answer it for me first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princessgianna Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Hi Jake, - First off-God's Peace be to you! It sounds like you are truly wanting to be a dedicated Catholic! That's awesome bro-you are in my prayers! I would just like to ask you to keep your heart and mind open! God really wants you (like all people) to know and understand the [b]fullness [/b]of His Truth! If you truly believe that the Catholic Church holds the Truth then I pray that you be true to yourself most importantly God! So I encourage you to keep studying your faith! And have an open heart and mind! Pax~ Gianna~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcts Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 [quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843925' date='Apr 22 2009, 08:05 PM']Thats avoiding the question. Want to answer it for me first?[/quote] They have a good point, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
princessgianna Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 [quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843925' date='Apr 22 2009, 08:05 PM']Thats avoiding the question. Want to answer it for me first?[/quote] not trying to mean but .... You are now avoiding the question! Pax~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Welcome to Phatmass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) [quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1843925' date='Apr 22 2009, 09:05 PM']Thats avoiding the question. Want to answer it for me first?[/quote] In response to "The Church or my conscience?" "[b]The Word of God is a light for our path[/b]. We must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. [b]This is how moral conscience is formed.[/b]" (CCC 1802, emphasis added) "Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, [b]nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind[/b], nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, emphasis added) Edited April 23, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) Would you like to explain how you can logically deny the teaching of the Catechism on homosexuality but accept its teaching of conscience? Edited April 23, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prose Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) Did I miss it, or did you get a chance to respond to my previous post? [quote]Although you are correct that having an affair hurts spouses and families, I think you are missing the ultimate point of the comparison. Both homosexual intercourse and heterosexual intercourse outside of marriage is sinful. Homosexuals can not get married. Are you implying that heterosexuals could also have sex before or outside of marriage without any sin incurred?[/quote] Edited April 23, 2009 by prose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now