Vincent Vega Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 [quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1850922' date='Apr 27 2009, 09:42 PM']Besides, as Catholics we have our own culture. Greogrian and polyphonic chant is our proper heritage.[/quote] As [i]LATIN[/i] Catholics. There are 22 other Sui Iuris Churches, including the Syro-Malankara, Syro-Malabar, and Coptic Churches, the first two being found primarily in the Indian subcontinent, and the latter from Egypt. I bet they have some customs and traditions that would seem very alien to you, and if you went up to them and told them that Gregorian chant was their "proper heritage", you'd probably get a look like this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdAltareDei Posted April 28, 2009 Author Share Posted April 28, 2009 In respones to all: Gregorian Chant is proper to the Latin Rite. Someone said "we aren't all Roman". I'm sorry, but we are all part of the Latin rite. So in a sense, we are. You can't use the example of the Eastern Churches, because they are different Rites and have different Masses and legitimate cultures. Africans are part of the Latin rite, so Mass should be celebrated according to the norms of the Latin Rite. Inculturation shouldn't be allowed. my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdAltareDei Posted April 28, 2009 Author Share Posted April 28, 2009 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1851009' date='Apr 27 2009, 11:29 PM']As [i]LATIN[/i] Catholics. There are 22 other Sui Iuris Churches, including the Syro-Malankara, Syro-Malabar, and Coptic Churches, the first two being found primarily in the Indian subcontinent, and the latter from Egypt. I bet they have some customs and traditions that would seem very alien to you, and if you went up to them and told them that Gregorian chant was their "proper heritage", you'd probably get a look like this: [/quote] I should have been more specific, Latin rite Catholics have a heritage of gregorian and polyphonic chant. But the African Church is Latin Rite. Yeah sure. The other rites all have their own beautiful musical and liturgical traditions. I bet you that none of them include "liturgical" dancing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 [quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1851014' date='Apr 27 2009, 11:36 PM']In respones to all: Gregorian Chant is proper to the Latin Rite. Someone said "we aren't all Roman". I'm sorry, but we are all part of the Latin rite. So in a sense, we are. You can't use the example of the Eastern Churches, because they are different Rites and have different Masses and legitimate cultures. Africans are part of the Latin rite, so Mass should be celebrated according to the norms of the Latin Rite. Inculturation shouldn't be allowed. my opinion.[/quote] I am not Latin Rite. I do not consider myself to be so. I grew up Latin Rite but I am going more and more towards the Eastern Rite. Exactly right...your opinion. [quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1851017' date='Apr 27 2009, 11:39 PM']I should have been more specific, Latin rite Catholics have a heritage of gregorian and polyphonic chant. But the African Church is Latin Rite. Yeah sure. The other rites all have their own beautiful musical and liturgical traditions. I bet you that none of them include "liturgical" dancing.[/quote] Yet you consider African/Mexican Dance "liturgical"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1851022' date='Apr 27 2009, 10:43 PM']I am not Latin Rite. I do not consider myself to be so. I grew up Latin Rite but I am going more and more towards the Eastern Rite. Exactly right...your opinion.[/quote] Unless you've officially changed your status, you would remain canonically Latin Rite (if you were originally Latin Rite, e.g. Your father is Latin Rite) and be bound by such fasting obligations (though the Eastern Rites generally have more stricter fasts). Which Rite are you leaning toward now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdAltareDei Posted April 28, 2009 Author Share Posted April 28, 2009 If you're eastern rite thats fine. You're very lucky. But that doesn't justify dance in the Mass. I'm sure you've never seen a bunch of dancers entering the sanctuary if you attend an eastern rite Mass. Who said I consider African/Mexican dance liturgical :s I'm arguing that it doesn't belong in the liturgy. At all. Each rite has its own traditions which have grown organically and have a legitimate place in worship. Dance isn't one of these traditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 How does one decide which tradition organically grown in a Rite is a tradition? Practices that might seem traditional in America may be different then those seen in Africa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdAltareDei Posted April 28, 2009 Author Share Posted April 28, 2009 [quote name='CatholicCid' post='1851037' date='Apr 27 2009, 10:55 PM']How does one decide which tradition organically grown in a Rite is a tradition? Practices that might seem traditional in America may be different then those seen in Africa.[/quote] It's not about countries. America and Africa both belong to the latin right, and up until 10 or 20 years ago liturgical dance was unheard of in the Latin Rite. Not to mention it's so prone to abuse and changing the focus of the Mass. I live in Australia, does that mean that we should start introducing the didgeridoo into the Mass (which I've seen)? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 But could not two different traditions organically grow into the liturgy in two different locations, even if the tradition might seem inappropriate in the opposite location? (I was actually asking how you think such traditions would spring up btw, not trying to make a point. The location would seem to have to play some factor.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdAltareDei Posted April 28, 2009 Author Share Posted April 28, 2009 I'm not sure how the traditions "spring up". Usually once they do, they are sanctioned or condemned by the Church. Liturgical dance is relatively new so I suppose it hasn't got to that point yet. I just believe its inappropriate and doesn't belong in the Mass. It takes the attention off of the Eucharist and turns Mass into a performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 I have heard that after 30-40 years, it's considered tradition, but take that with a half-grain of salt. I would agree, but, quite frankly, I have no clue about African culture, so I leave that up to the Bishops of Africa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 [quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1851058' date='Apr 27 2009, 11:11 PM']Liturgical dance is relatively new so I suppose it hasn't got to that point yet. I just believe its inappropriate and doesn't belong in the Mass. It takes the attention off of the Eucharist and turns Mass into a performance.[/quote] I'm no fan of what we'd consider liturgical dancing (Africa is another matter entirely, to me), but I'd like to point out something about that last bit. Basically any part of the mass, from the offertory hymn the choir sings, to Father's homily, can turn into a performance and distract from the Eucharist if not done properly. Anyway, as far as Africa goes, I'm still going to have to go with the good Cardinal Arinze on this one. As long as it is done in a context where it is appropriate, I see no problem with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 [quote name='AdAltareDei' post='1851058' date='Apr 28 2009, 12:11 AM']It takes the attention off of the Eucharist and turns Mass into a performance.[/quote] But you see? To you it is performance. To them it is not. It is the way they praise God. St. Juan Diego got into loads of trouble because he tried to mix his culture with his religion. Then Mary appeared to him and joined both cultures together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 We have an African priest filling in for our vacationing Indian priest. At the elevation of the host, right after the bells stopped, he broke into spontaneous song. It was some kind of song calling the Holy Spirit down. Totally took everyone by surprise. It sounded a bit like a kids song, not quite as bad as "Jesus loves me," but kind of in that line, but no one took it as sacrilegious or as an abuse. It was so unrestrained and joyous. I made me want to go to mass in Africa. If a Canadian priest had done the same, people would have freaked, but from this priest, it was like allowing us in to his culture a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdAltareDei Posted April 28, 2009 Author Share Posted April 28, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1851076' date='Apr 28 2009, 12:24 AM']But you see? To you it is performance. To them it is not. It is the way they praise God. St. Juan Diego got into loads of trouble because he tried to mix his culture with his religion. Then Mary appeared to him and joined both cultures together.[/quote] There's lots of room for mixing religion and culture. Just not in the liturgy. I guarantee you that St. Juan Diego didn't start playing native instruments or processed into Mass dancing. It's the liturgy we're talking about. If they want to dance to praise God then thats fine, but do it outside the context of the Mass. It only acts to further diminish the sacrificial nature of the Mass and orientate the liturgy towards the celebration of man, not the celebration of God. I think sometimes we forget that the Mass is a prayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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