Christ Is The Truth

[reyb]

‘Christ is the truth’, I usually heard this phrase from pastors, preachers and priest echoing John 14:6. While according to Aristotle, in discussing Metaphysic, his formula states, ‘to say of that which is, that it is not, or of that which is not, that it is, is false; while to say of that which is, that it is or of that which is not, that it is not, is true’ with the same fashion as that of St Thomas by defining ‘Truth is the conformity between the thing and the intellect’.

May I know what do you mean by ‘Christ is the truth’?

Edited April 28, 2009 by reyb

[LouisvilleFan]

Truth isn't what you know, but who you know and how you live.

[thessalonian]

False dichotomy LVF. That's nonsense. Yes the truth is the person of Christ and through him what we know is revealed through his Church.

[cmotherofpirl]

And of course by this we mean Jesus Christ who was born 2000 years ago, was crucified, died and was resurrected. The Man found in the New Testament and found in the Catholic Church.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1851261' date='Apr 28 2009, 01:21 PM']False dichotomy LVF. That's nonsense. Yes the truth is the person of Christ and through him what we know is revealed through his Church.[/quote]

"Dear friends, truth is not an imposition. Nor is it simply a set of rules. It is a discovery of the One who never fails us; the One whom we can always trust. In seeking truth we come to live by belief because ultimately truth is a person: Jesus Christ." -Pope Benedict XVI at St. Joseph Seminary on April 19, 2008

[url="http://www.wf-f.org/08-2-BXVI_Yonkers.html"]http://www.wf-f.org/08-2-BXVI_Yonkers.html[/url]

My apologies for failing to flesh it out more fully, but keep in mind this is a response to reyb. I didn't want to commit the sin of giving pearls to swine.

Edited April 28, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[StColette]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1851339' date='Apr 28 2009, 02:58 PM']but keep in mind this is a response to reyb. I didn't want to commit the sin of giving pearls to swine.[/quote]

It should not matter who the response is to. Your duty as a Catholic is to proclaim the Truth to the best of your abilities to all of those that need the truth proclaimed to them. Your uncharitable comment does not help proclaim the Kingdom of God.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='StColette' post='1851340' date='Apr 28 2009, 04:02 PM']It should not matter who the response is to. Your duty as a Catholic is to proclaim the Truth to the best of your abilities to all of those that need the truth proclaimed to them. Your uncharitable comment does not help proclaim the Kingdom of God.[/quote]

reyb asked what it means that "Christ is the Truth" and I gave the short and sweet answer. This is someone who always asks loaded questions and has never demonstrated a genuine interest in our beliefs, or anybody else's beliefs for that matter. We are also called to exercise wisdom, so I am wisely choosing not to exert any more time and energy than minimally necessary to generously honor reyb's inquiry with a faithful Catholic response.

Waiting for reyb's conspiracy theory...

Edited April 28, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[StColette]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1851343' date='Apr 28 2009, 03:10 PM']reyb asked what it means that "Christ is the Truth" and I gave the short and sweet answer. This is someone who always asks loaded questions and has never demonstrated a genuine interest in our beliefs, or anybody else's beliefs for that matter. We are also called to exercise wisdom, so I am wisely choosing not to exert any more time and energy than minimally necessary to generously honor reyb's inquiry with a faithful Catholic response.

Waiting for reyb's conspiracy theory...[/quote]

If you feel this way then it would be best for you not to respond to reyb's threads Your approach to reyb's questions does not excuse your jab about casting pearls before swine or that it's merely a reyb question.

You must keep in mind the others who lurk or read on phatmass in search of answers. If you feel reyb is a lost cause then you should try answering for the benefit of others that may have something to learn from his questions.

It is often those who are not involved in the discussion that get the greater amount of knowledge from the conversation.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1851339' date='Apr 28 2009, 02:58 PM']"Dear friends, truth is not an imposition. Nor is it simply a set of rules. It is a discovery of the One who never fails us; the One whom we can always trust. In seeking truth we come to live by belief because ultimately truth is a person: Jesus Christ." -Pope Benedict XVI at St. Joseph Seminary on April 19, 2008[/quote]

I am aware of Bendicts statement and have read his book "Truth and Tolerance". Your statement is not consistent with his. "simply a set of rules" does not mean there are not rules that are true and the source of the truth in those rules is Christ. What this quote says to me is that truth is more than rules and beliefs. Not that it is apart from rules and beliefs. Truth needs to become a way of life and in that way of life we come to live as Christ for others. To be transformed into his image and likeness. I stand by saying that your statement was not only inadequate it was in error. A false dichotomy. Benedicts statement is not.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1851256' date='Apr 28 2009, 10:10 AM']Truth isn't what you know, but who you know and how you live.[/quote]
I like this comment, but I would alter it a bit:

Divine Truth is not what you know discursively, but who you know experientially, and it is only by experiencing the life of the Triune God that you can live virtuously.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Apotheoun

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='StColette' post='1851345' date='Apr 28 2009, 04:14 PM']If you feel this way then it would be best for you not to respond to reyb's threads Your approach to reyb's questions does not excuse your jab about casting pearls before swine or that it's merely a reyb question.[/quote]

reyb needs to hear the truth, including the truth about how he/she always comes to us with loaded questions

[quote name='StColette' post='1851345' date='Apr 28 2009, 04:14 PM']You must keep in mind the others who lurk or read on phatmass in search of answers. If you feel reyb is a lost cause then you should try answering for the benefit of others that may have something to learn from his questions.[/quote]

My answer was true, and to the point, which leaves more time to think about it.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1851414' date='Apr 28 2009, 06:20 PM']I am aware of Bendicts statement and have read his book "Truth and Tolerance". Your statement is not consistent with his. "simply a set of rules" does not mean there are not rules that are true and the source of the truth in those rules is Christ. What this quote says to me is that truth is more than rules and beliefs. Not that it is apart from rules and beliefs. Truth needs to become a way of life and in that way of life we come to live as Christ for others. To be transformed into his image and likeness. I stand by saying that your statement was not only inadequate it was in error. A false dichotomy. Benedicts statement is not.[/quote]

Where did I say that knowing Christ is separate from rules and beliefs? You know I am a faithful Catholic, yet you read heresy into all my posts. Is it because I don't write long paragraphs to explain every detail about a matter? I think the best way to answer reyb is with a single, short sentence that directly answers the question and not a detail more. You know the next question is already planned, so just wait for it to come along and answer that one... and the next one... saves yourself a lot of time from all that unnecessary typing

[thessalonian]

Forgive my applying the dictionary meaning to these words

"Truth isn't what you know"

Isn't meaning IS NOT as I recall, meaning it is something else and not what we know, i.e. knowledge.
Christ said "you shall KNOW the truth".
In Jer 3:15 we read "you shall KNOW the truth"
In timothy we read "give them KNOWLEDGE and understanding".

If truth isn't what we know then these statements are contradictory to truth, i.e. Christ. It's not a matter of expounding. But since you have rescinded your remark I accept your clarification.

Edited April 29, 2009 by thessalonian

[Apotheoun]

The key to understanding LVF's post is to focus on the words "what" and "who," while also bearing in mind the equivocal nature of the word "know" (or "knowledge").

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1852297' date='Apr 29 2009, 02:18 PM']The key to understanding LVF's post is to focus on the words "what" and "who," while also bearing in mind the equivocal nature of the word "know" (or "knowledge").[/quote]

I do understand what he is trying to say. I don't believe that is what he has said however. But if it is my apologies. One thing about apologetics I have become very sensitive to is false dichotomy. It's very human to see things either or, check out the "how many are in hell thread" with regard to the notion of heaven being a place or a state of being. One CATHOLIC says one thing another says the other. They are not neccessarily opposed. As catholics we need to think more in terms of both/and.

Edited April 29, 2009 by thessalonian

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1852316' date='Apr 29 2009, 12:46 PM']I do understand what he is trying to say. I don't believe that is what he has said however. But if it is my apologies. One thing about apologetics I have become very sensitive to is false dichotomy.[/quote]
In the Eastern Christian tradition it is not possible to know [i]what[/i] God is, because the divine essence is [i]adiastemic[/i]; instead, one can only [i]who[/i] He is, and it possible to know that only because He has seen fit to reveal Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

That said, I read LVF's post in a way that is compatible with the teachings of the Eastern Fathers, but whether he meant it that way or not is another question altogether.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1852316' date='Apr 29 2009, 12:46 PM']It's very human to see things either or, check out the "how many are in hell thread" with regard to the notion of heaven being a place or a state of being.[/quote]
Yes, I understand what you are saying about how people choose to see things, e.g., I as a Byzantine Christian see heaven as God Himself given to us. In other words, heaven for me is the never-ending process of [i]theosis[/i] (divinization) whereby the saints stretch infinitely into God through the gift of His uncreated energies.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Apotheoun

[thessalonian]

"Yes, I understand what you are saying about how people choose to see things, e.g., I as a Byzantine Christian see heaven as God Himself given to us. In other words, heaven for me is the never-ending process of theosis (divinization) whereby the saints stretch infinitely into God through the gift of His uncreated energies. "


Now that I like.

[thessalonian]

I guess I could go along in some sense with LVF's statement in that our limited capacity will never come close to having full knowledge of the infinite and divine.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1852291' date='Apr 29 2009, 03:04 PM']Forgive my applying the dictionary meaning to these words[/quote]

I forgive you. Could you tell me which definition of "hate" we should use in Luke 14:26?

"If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."

I see your point about my word choice... it was a quick answer and I expected the intent would be understood as I hope I can be given some grace and benefit of the doubt.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1852291' date='Apr 29 2009, 03:04 PM']"Truth isn't what you know"

Isn't meaning IS NOT as I recall, meaning it is something else and not what we know, i.e. knowledge.
Christ said "you shall KNOW the truth".
In Jer 3:15 we read "you shall KNOW the truth"
In timothy we read "give them KNOWLEDGE and understanding".

If truth isn't what we know then these statements are contradictory to truth, i.e. Christ. It's not a matter of expounding. But since you have rescinded your remark I accept your clarification.[/quote]

And in the Ten Commandments, were are told to honor our father and mother. And people think the Old Testament God gets a bad rap... Jesus was turnin' the water into Hatorade!

False dichotomies they are all. Personally, I hope there is more to Christian theology than sorting out false dichotomies

In response to reyb's question about the statement, "Christ is the Truth," we are referring to Truth as a Person, Jesus Christ, and thus it is appropriate to first acknowledge our relationship with Truth as revealed in Christ. Thus, we come to know Truth through the experience of our relationship with Truth. The knowledge referred to in Jeremiah and Timothy are those specific things we learn from Christ in communion with his Body and Bride.

Of course, knowing the nature of reyb's posts, I expect he/she wants to make a point about how we Catholics allow book knowledge and theology to get between us and a true "biblical" relationship with Christ. Tor some people, this is true to an extent, but that is an issue treated through becoming a better disciple of Christ who learns to cherish Truth and glorify God with knowledge rather than throwing out the goodness of Truth to seek a "simpler" path.

Or I might be wrong... we'll have to see what reyb has to say.

Edited April 29, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Dr_Asik]

If you read Aquinas you may quickly notice a pattern: that an expression has different meanings and that the appropriate answer to a question involves the examination of all the possible meanings of that question.

Truth is, in the most common sense, is defined as "adaequatio rei et intellectus", correspondance between the mind and reality.

However, in Aristotelian-thomist metaphysics, truth is also defined as one of the primary universals; it is the intelligibility of a thing, the measure in which it is comprehensible by an intellect.

Thus in Summa Q16 a.5, at the question "Is God truth?", Saint Thomas Aquinas beings his answer by making this very distinction: [url="http://newadvent.org/summa/1016.htm#article5"][b]truth is found in the intellect according as it apprehends a thing as it is; and in things according as they have being conformable to an intellect.[/b][/url] He then goes on to explain that both of these meanings can effectively be said of God*, hence that God is truth.

Now, Christ is God.
Hence, Christ is truth.


*Full answer : [b]As said above (Article 1), truth is found in the intellect according as it apprehends a thing as it is; and in things according as they have being conformable to an intellect. This is to the greatest degree found in God. For His being is not only conformed to His intellect, but it is the very act of His intellect; and His act of understanding is the measure and cause of every other being and of every other intellect, and He Himself is His own existence and act of understanding. Whence it follows not only that truth is in Him, but that He is truth itself, and the sovereign and first truth.[/b]

Edited April 29, 2009 by Dr_Asik

[Apotheoun]

Sensible light shows things to our senses. The intellectual light is to manifest the truth which is contained in thoughts. But those who receive the spiritual or supernatural Light, perceive what is beyond all intellect. They participate in the divine energies and become themselves, in a sort, Light. When they unite to the Light, they see with it in full all that is hidden from those who have not seen the grace of Llight. The Uncreated Light is the Light where God makes Himself manifest to those who enter into union with Him.

[i]St. Gregory Palamas[/i] (1296 - 1359)