Council O' Trent And Number O' Sacraments

[Resurrexi]

One has to wonder how you went from what you were to what you are.

[Apotheoun]

I have seen the Christian faith from many different angles: I was raised a Methodist, and became Anglo-Catholic in 1986, only to converted to Catholicism in 1987/1988, and finally in 2005 I transferred from the Roman Church to the Byzantine Church, and have been experiencing the joy of Eastern Christianity for the past four years.



Life is a journey.

P.S. - There is nothing better for getting rid of the last vestiges of Protestant theology in a man's thought than living life in an Eastern Church.

[Resurrexi]

Latin Catholic theology (at least traditionally) is hardly Protestant, more anti-Protestant, actually.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1859054' date='May 5 2009, 07:44 PM']Latin Catholic theology (at least traditionally) is hardly Protestant, more anti-Protestant, actually.[/quote]
This will probably sound odd to you, but in a strange way modern Latin theology has been formed by its response to the Protestant revolt.

[Aloysius]

and the West considers that a good thing... Christian Theology has been being formed in response to heretical revolts since the beginning.

[Resurrexi]

As I said, [b]Catholic[/b] (yes the Council of Trent is for the Universal Church) theology is very [b]anti-Protestant[/b]. But then again we wouldn't have the Nicene Creed if it weren't for the Arians.

[LouisvilleFan]

I believe the bottom line is both Roman Catholic/Latin Rite and Protestant theology are products of the Western approach to intellectualism and scientific study.

(That probably isn't a perfectly worded statement... but wanted to put it out there to hopefully get to the central point that's being missed)

Edited May 6, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Resurrexi]

Dogmas such as the number of Sacraments and Papal Infallibility are not products of a Western approach, but are truths which God revealed.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1859447' date='May 6 2009, 06:39 AM']I believe the bottom line is both Roman Catholic/Latin Rite and Protestant theology are products of the Western approach to intellectualism and scientific study.[/quote]
I agree.

[Formosus]

In some sense, any making present of Christ to the world is a Sacrament. In the east, perhaps what westerners might call "sacramentals" are Mysteries just like the seven Mysteries. There is no contradiction. We simply are willing to be broader with our definition (which is an older pre-scholastic view of Sacrament common to both east and west).

[thessalonian]

THe eastern church may have a different way of looking at things but neither is superior.

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1859053' date='May 5 2009, 08:42 PM']There is nothing better for getting rid of the last vestiges of Protestant theology in a man's thought than living life in an Eastern Church.[/quote]

It seems like your real beef is with the idea of Western Christianity.

[mortify]

[quote name='Formosus' post='1859803' date='May 6 2009, 04:01 PM']In some sense, any making present of Christ to the world is a Sacrament. In the east, perhaps what westerners might call "sacramentals" are Mysteries just like the seven Mysteries. There is no contradiction. We simply are willing to be broader with our definition (which is an older pre-scholastic view of Sacrament common to both east and west).[/quote]

Is it common? I would think Christians always made a distinction between sacraments in general, and the seven sacraments instituted by Christ. The chief difference is that the latter are channels of grace within themselves, merely by performing the rite.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' post='1859903' date='May 6 2009, 04:29 PM']Is it common? I would think Christians always made a distinction between sacraments in general, and the seven sacraments instituted by Christ.[/quote]
Actually, the idea of "sacramentals" is a Scholastic distinction unheard of until the 11th and 12th century in the West.

[quote name='mortify' post='1859903' date='May 6 2009, 04:29 PM']The chief difference is that the latter are channels of grace within themselves, merely by performing the rite.[/quote]
Christ institutes all the mysteries in His Church, but in saying this I do not limit Christ to the time of His earthly ministry.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' post='1859896' date='May 6 2009, 04:24 PM']It seems like your real beef is with the idea of Western Christianity.[/quote]
Not at all. I have great devotion to the Western Fathers (St. Leo, St. Peter Chrysologus, St. Gregory the Great, et al.) who embody the faith once for all given to the saints just like their Eastern counterparts.

[Resurrexi]

I take it you don't feel the same way about say, St. Thomas Aquinas or St. Bonaventure.

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1859913' date='May 6 2009, 05:31 PM']Actually, the idea of "sacramentals" is a Scholastic distinction unheard of until the 11th and 12th century in the West.[/quote]

I mean sacrament in a more general sense, the way we say the Church is a sacrament. It seems intuitive that the sacraments instituted by Christ to direct our spiritual life, would be held in a higher regard than others.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' post='1859935' date='May 6 2009, 04:39 PM']I mean sacrament in a more general sense, the way we say the Church is a sacrament. It seems intuitive that the sacraments instituted by Christ to direct our spiritual life, would be held in a higher regard than others.[/quote]
The Eastern Fathers never enumerated the mysteries (i.e., the sacraments).

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1859923' date='May 6 2009, 05:34 PM']Not at all. I have great devotion to the Western Fathers (St. Leo, St. Peter Chrysologus, St. Gregory the Great, et al.) who embody the faith once for all given to the saints just like their Eastern counterparts.[/quote]

I don't think you would consider the filioque, universal jurisdiction of the papacy, and purgatory as embodying the "faith once for all." But the impression I get from Easterners, is that they regard their particular theological views and disciplines as being handed down directly from the Apostles, as oppose to developments reflecting their particular culture. I think once the East recognizes the existence of development, many of the issues dividing us will become moot.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' post='1859975' date='May 6 2009, 04:50 PM']I don't think you would consider the filioque, universal jurisdiction of the papacy, and purgatory as embodying the "faith once for all." But the impression I get from Easterners, is that they regard their particular theological views and disciplines as being handed down directly from the Apostles, as oppose to developments reflecting their particular culture. I think once the East recognizes the existence of development, many of the issues dividing us will become moot.[/quote]
It is not I who said that the East has remained unchanged, that was Cardinal Ratzinger, and obviously any changes to the faith once delivered to the saints will need to be justified.