Answering Angels & Demons

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1875731' date='May 26 2009, 02:39 PM']The movie I saw dramatized and stretched historical fact (Galileo was branded a heretic by the Church for his scientific discoveries you know), but nevertheless the priests - at least the carmelengo - expressed remorse over this.[/quote]

No, he wasn't labeled a heretic. He was labeled "suspect of heresy".

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1875789' date='May 26 2009, 04:05 PM']No, he wasn't labeled a heretic. He was labeled "suspect of heresy".[/quote]

In any event, his scientific advances were not exactly encouraged.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1873979' date='May 23 2009, 04:04 PM']well i wont be going to see it, not for fear that it will "influence me in anti-Catholic sentiments," but that I would be paying $7-10 dollars to help fund and encourage more books and movies which have the strong potential to spread lies against the Church and Jesus Christ.

This is a movie that came from the guy who also spread the fictional story that Jesus Christ was married to Mary Magdalene and had a child.

Yeah, I think I'll pass spending two or so hours of my life watching anything he comes up with. I don't need to be so badly entertained or re-hear/learn from him and his work the need for science and religion to co-exist.[/quote]

I agree completely.

[Spence06]

Yea Erin, we can't split hair.

He was as quoted, "suspected of heresy" but the beliefs that he did hold that were correct was deemed as formally heretical. so your correct in what you say, it was not encouraged, I saw it again btw and I still liked it!

Edited May 27, 2009 by Spence06

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1875796' date='May 26 2009, 04:24 PM']In any event, his scientific advances were not exactly encouraged.[/quote]

not true.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1876150' date='May 26 2009, 10:48 PM']not true.[/quote]

[b] Galileo's belief in the Copernican System eventually got him into trouble with the Catholic Church. The Inquisition was a permanent institution in the Catholic Church charged with the eradication of heresies. A committee of consultants declared to the Inquisition that the Copernican proposition that the Sun is the center of the universe was a heresy. Because Galileo supported the Copernican system, he was warned by Cardinal Bellarmine, under order of Pope Paul V, that he should not discuss or defend Copernican theories. In 1624, Galileo was assured by Pope Urban VIII that he could write about Copernican theory as long as he treated it as a mathematical proposition. However, with the printing of Galileo's book, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was called to Rome in 1633 to face the Inquisition again. Galileo was found guilty of heresy for his Dialogue, and was sent to his home near Florence where he was to be under house arrest for the remainder of his life. In 1638, the Inquisition allowed Galileo to move to his home in Florence, so that he could be closer to his doctors. By that time he was totally blind. In 1642, Galileo died at his home outside Florence. [/b]

Source: [url="http://galileo.rice.edu/bio/narrative_7.html"]http://galileo.rice.edu/bio/narrative_7.html[/url]

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Spence06' post='1876147' date='May 26 2009, 10:46 PM']Yea Erin, we can't split hair.

He was as quoted, "suspected of heresy" but the beliefs that he did hold that were correct was deemed as formally heretical. so your correct in what you say, it was not encouraged, I saw it again btw and I still liked it![/quote]

His beliefs were not deemed formally heretical. The only statement was a theological opinion issued by the theologians of the Holy Office. Theological opinion does not represent the Magisterium (official teaching) of the Church.

Years before Galileo, Copernicus, a Polish monk, published [i]Revolutions of the Celestial Orbs [/i]which advanced the theory of heliocentrism. It was dedicated to Pope Paul III and received a respectful hearing in the Vatican.

It was Martin Luther who violentely condemned it because protestantism was based on a literal interpretation of the Bible. Not the Church.

When Galileo came around with the same theory he went to Rome where Pope Paul V and Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, a Jesuit scholar, had an audience with him. They were intruiged but concerned with too hasty a publication of the theories, which could possibly produce disruption in the minds of ordinary Catholics.

[quote]"The Church officials were willing that heliocentrism be taught as a hypothesis (not a fact) and discussed in scientific circles, so long as the faith of the ordinary people was safeguarded. But Galileo began to teach his theory loudly and widely, insisting that it was proven fact. It was not yet proven; not enough data existed to prove it. Finally, on February 19, 1616 two propositions advanced by Galileo were submitted by the Court of the Inquisition to the Holy Office in the Vatican for advice regarding their orthodoxy: 1. “the sun is the center of the world and hence immovable of local motion” 2. “the Earth is not the center of the world, nor immovable but moves according to the whole of itself.” On February 24 the theologians in the Holy Office stated that they found the first proposition 'foolish and absurd philosophically and formally heretical...' and the second 'to receive the same censure in philosophy and, as regards theological truth, to be at least erroneous in faith.'

The next day Pope Paul V was notified of their opinion. He asked Cardinal Bellarmine to warn Galileo that if he did not abstain from discussing his theory as fact, he could be imprisoned. Galileo accepted this warning, and all was quiet for sixteen years. But in 1632 Galileo published his Dialogue on the Great World Systems, which once again advanced heliocentrism. He was called before the Inquisition. The proceedings were not of the highest quality. Galileo's enemies produced a forged document stating that Galileo had been absolutely forbidden to teach heliocentrism, instead of being forbidden to teach it as fact; and Galileo lied about the circumstances of the publication of his book. The Inquisition, on June 22, 1633, decreed that Galileo had rendered himself “vehemently suspected of heresy.” He was to renounce his errors before the Inquisition, which he did, and he was placed under comfortable house arrest. That his arrest was not painful is shown by the fact that while under arrest he wrote an important book on mechanics, including his theories on acceleration, motion and inertia." - Anne Carroll[/quote]

[b]Galileo was clearly not persecuted, nor did he seem to suffer much for his views. Such punishment as he received he brought upon himself by refusing to moderate his statements or to take account of the dangers to the faith of ordinary people by widespread teaching of his ideas.

[u]At no time did any official Church teaching condemn heliocentrism as heretical. The Pope did not, nor did any bishop, nor did the Inquisition itself. The only statement was a theological opinion issued by the theologians of the Holy Office.[/u] [i][u]Theological opinion does not represent the Magisterium (official teaching) of the Church [/u][/i]other scientists then and later were perfectly willing to accept Church guidance in this area, and gradually heliocentrism came to be accepted. [/b]

Edited May 27, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1876155' date='May 26 2009, 10:51 PM'][b] Galileo's belief in the Copernican System eventually got him into trouble with the Catholic Church. The Inquisition was a permanent institution in the Catholic Church charged with the eradication of heresies. A committee of consultants declared to the Inquisition that the Copernican proposition that the Sun is the center of the universe was a heresy. Because Galileo supported the Copernican system, he was warned by Cardinal Bellarmine, under order of Pope Paul V, that he should not discuss or defend Copernican theories. In 1624, Galileo was assured by Pope Urban VIII that he could write about Copernican theory as long as he treated it as a mathematical proposition. However, with the printing of Galileo's book, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was called to Rome in 1633 to face the Inquisition again. Galileo was found guilty of heresy for his Dialogue, and was sent to his home near Florence where he was to be under house arrest for the remainder of his life. In 1638, the Inquisition allowed Galileo to move to his home in Florence, so that he could be closer to his doctors. By that time he was totally blind. In 1642, Galileo died at his home outside Florence. [/b]

Source: [url="http://galileo.rice.edu/bio/narrative_7.html"]http://galileo.rice.edu/bio/narrative_7.html[/url][/quote]

The same theories were encouraged before him and after him. It had nothing to do with his theories. It was his hot-headedness and disobedience which got him into trouble.

He was told he could continue to think the way he was thinking and talk about his theories and encourage thought in them as [b]theories[/b], which they were at the time. He refused to do that. He went around calling them fact.

He was encouraged to think. He was not encouraged to go around saying theory was fact.

Edited May 27, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1876204' date='May 26 2009, 11:09 PM']The same theories were encouraged before him and after him. It had nothing to do with his theories. It was his hot-headedness and disobedience which got him into trouble.

He was told he could continue to think the way he was thinking and talk about his theories and encourage thought in them as [b]theories[/b], which they were at the time. He refused to do that. He went around calling them fact.

He was encouraged to think. He was not encouraged to go around saying theory was fact.[/quote]

Was the Church stating theory in regards to the universe revolving around the earth, or was that idea presented as fact?

[Hassan]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1876202' date='May 26 2009, 10:06 PM']His beliefs were not deemed formally heretical. The only statement was a theological opinion issued by the theologians of the Holy Office. Theological opinion does not represent the Magisterium (official teaching) of the Church.

Years before Galileo, Copernicus, a Polish monk, published [i]Revolutions of the Celestial Orbs [/i]which advanced the theory of heliocentrism. It was dedicated to Pope Paul III and received a respectful hearing in the Vatican.

It was Martin Luther who violentely condemned it because protestantism was based on a literal interpretation of the Bible. Not the Church.

When Galileo came around with the same theory he went to Rome where Pope Paul V and Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, a Jesuit scholar, had an audience with him. They were intruiged but concerned with too hasty a publication of the theories, which could possibly produce disruption in the minds of ordinary Catholics.


[b]Galileo was clearly not persecuted, nor did he seem to suffer much for his views. Such punishment as he received he brought upon himself by refusing to moderate his statements or to take account of the dangers to the faith of ordinary people by widespread teaching of his ideas.

[u]At no time did any official Church teaching condemn heliocentrism as heretical. The Pope did not, nor did any bishop, nor did the Inquisition itself. The only statement was a theological opinion issued by the theologians of the Holy Office.[/u] [i][u]Theological opinion does not represent the Magisterium (official teaching) of the Church [/u][/i]other scientists then and later were perfectly willing to accept Church guidance in this area, and gradually heliocentrism came to be accepted. [/b][/quote]


I agree. The Church has every right to determine which scientific oppinions are legitimate and how the ought to go about being discussed, and anyone whose views may corrupt the faithful and refuse to comply with Church rulings ought to be put under house arrest.

[Spence06]

[quote]His beliefs were not deemed formally heretical. The only statement was a theological opinion issued by the theologians of the Holy Office. Theological opinion does not represent the Magisterium (official teaching) of the Church.

When Galileo came around with the same theory he went to Rome where Pope Paul V and Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, a Jesuit scholar, had an audience with him. They were intruiged but concerned with too hasty a publication of the theories, which could possibly produce disruption in the minds of ordinary Catholics.[/quote]

The group of Cardinals, said this, "

[b]"That the Sun is the centre of the universe and doth not move from his place is a proposition absurd and false in philosophy, and formerly heretical; being expressly contrary to Holy Writ: That the Earth is not the centre of the universe nor immoveable, but that it moves, even with a diurnal motion, is likewise a proposition absurd and false in philosophy, and considered in theology ad minus erroneous in faith....."[/b]

I know theological "opinion" does not represent official stamped teaching but it does represent public actions taken by the Church leaders and not stopped by the official Church teaching. There were certain abuses in our history and this is one of them. Science and faith have a unique relationship and they are not opposed but people can misunderstand that relationship as the Church did in the past.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Spence06' post='1876222' date='May 26 2009, 10:21 PM']I know theological "opinion" does not represent official stamped teaching but it does represent public actions taken by the Church leaders and not stopped by the official Church teaching. There were certain abuses in our history and this is one of them.[/quote]

[kafka]

hence the apologies etc. etc. etc.

I went to see Angels and Demons last night. It was that or Star Trek which I've already seen or Sin Nombre a foreign Spanish film. I chose Angels & Demons, fell asleep after about a half an hour, momentarily opened my eyes throughout the film when I heard something or other exploding or to adjust myself in my chair only later to finally realize when I permanently awoke from my slumber we were at the very end where the anti-matter explodes in the sky.

I liked the Cardinal though



should have seen the foreign film

Edited May 27, 2009 by kafka

[Hassan]

[quote name='kafka' post='1876388' date='May 27 2009, 12:37 AM']should have [s]saw[/s] seen the foreign film

[/quote]


Because I feel like being a ______





You should have seen something by Eisenstein.

[kafka]

oh. that was bad. Its getting close to bedtime.

Edited May 27, 2009 by kafka