Does God Care?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='kafka' post='1868937' date='May 16 2009, 06:28 PM']like I said. A bit rustic.

There is a 'side' to man that is original and beyond what he categorically encounters, and it is unified with what he historically or categorically encounters. Many men have never encountered Church teaching which is ultimately drawn from Divine Revelation, the Deeds and Words of God in salvation history. And even if they have encountered it, they might not understand it completely or perfectly. That doesnt make them any less human, or lacking. One basically chooses to accept the good or reject it, even if he is mislead and errs from time to time.[/quote]

I do not disagree, there is no debate. Those within the Church however must use Her guidance to help evaluate themselves. They can not evaluate their self by their self. With or without the Church there must be some outside force used by the person to evaluate their self. As you point out.

[kafka]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1868948' date='May 16 2009, 06:38 PM']I do not disagree, there is no debate. Those within the Church however must use Her guidance to help evaluate themselves. They can not evaluate their self by their self. With or without the Church there must be some outside force used by the person to evaluate their self. As you point out.[/quote]


that fits in with the structure of our beings :

spirit/matter

transendence/history

unthematic/thematic

and so on and so forth.

[Hassan]

[quote name='kafka' post='1868956' date='May 16 2009, 05:46 PM']:

that fits in with the structure of our beings :

spirit/matter[/quote]


Are you a dualist?

[picchick]

If the person is sincere in his/her prayer and is putting his/her whole heart soul and mind into what they are saying and offering it up wholey and unselfishly to God in all intent and he/she is repentent of their sins, does it matter to God how they say their prayer?

If they:
Give thanks
Give praise
Ask what they need

[picchick]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1868915' date='May 16 2009, 05:49 PM']Also, not that you can not, and certainly not that you should not. But one must be careful when 'praying from the heart', after all it can not be forgotten that "the heart is perverse above all things." (Jeremiah 17:9)

Again this is only a warning, I am no way saying you can not 'pray from the heart.' We must be careful however that what we are praying from the heart should be what we are praying.[/quote]

Women is the heart of the home. I think that should also not be forgotten. Maybe that is off topic but be careful when you start shaming the heart.

Our emotions come from heart and the mind. We are human. We sin. However, if we are sincere in our feelings and sincere in our repentence then we can pray with the heart.

Furthermore, we must love God with our whole hearts soul and mind. The three together is what balances it all out.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='picchick' post='1869183' date='May 17 2009, 12:52 AM']Women is the heart of the home. I think that should also not be forgotten. Maybe that is off topic but be careful when you start shaming the heart.

Our emotions come from heart and the mind. We are human. We sin. However, if we are sincere in our feelings and sincere in our repentence then we can pray with the heart.

Furthermore, we must love God with our whole hearts soul and mind. The three together is what balances it all out.[/quote]

I wouldn't disagree, but then again that meaning of heart is completely different than what I was talking about.

[picchick]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1869184' date='May 17 2009, 12:55 AM']I wouldn't disagree, but then again that meaning of heart is completely different than what I was talking about.[/quote]

What is the meaning you were talking about so that I may understand?

[kafka]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1869158' date='May 17 2009, 12:24 AM']Are you a dualist?[/quote]
no. I am a totality of spirit/matter
Would you like to know my opinion even beyond that? I get the feeling you wouldnt understand it.
[quote name='picchick' post='1869169' date='May 17 2009, 12:37 AM']If the person is sincere in his/her prayer and is putting his/her whole heart soul and mind into what they are saying and offering it up wholey and unselfishly to God in all intent and he/she is repentent of their sins, does it matter to God how they say their prayer?

If they:
Give thanks
Give praise
Ask what they need[/quote] Basically, I think this is a good view of things.

Edited May 17, 2009 by kafka

[Hassan]

[quote name='kafka' post='1869193' date='May 17 2009, 12:17 AM']no. I am a totality of spirit/matter
Would you like to know my opinion even beyond that? I get the feeling you wouldnt understand it.[/quote]

yes and we'll see

[kafka]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1869198' date='May 17 2009, 01:28 AM']yes and we'll see[/quote]

good,

yet I can already predict, that you havent considered it.

[picchick]

[quote name='kafka' post='1869193' date='May 17 2009, 01:17 AM']no. I am a totality of spirit/matter
Would you like to know my opinion even beyond that? I get the feeling you wouldnt understand it.[/quote]
You know, I hate when people assume what others will/will not understand. Just say and explain yourself is someone does not understand. I find it insulting when people do this to me so I would ask that you don't do it to others. And if you do not think we will understand it, don't bring it up.
[quote]Basically, I think this is a good view of things.[/quote]

Good. Can everyone agree with what I said?

[Slappo]

[quote name='picchick' post='1869293' date='May 17 2009, 05:43 AM']Good. Can everyone agree with what I said?[/quote]

Aww... but that would make it so easy!

I guess I can...

Yeah it sounds good picchick. Don't forget that posture and reverence are important aspects of how you pray though.

Edit: Not a specific posture though (don't have to kneel, don't have to stand, etc, but no handstands in the chapel please? )

Edited May 17, 2009 by Slappo

[Apotheoun]

All that can be known with any certainty is that true worship (and true prayer) must always be Christologically and Triadologically structured (i.e., it must be made through the Son, to the Father, in the power and energy of the Holy Spirit) .

Now, as far as God hearing or accepting other prayer forms is concerned, it is not possible to give a definitive answer, because the answer to that question has not been revealed. All that has been revealed is that man must pray through the agency of the incarnate Logos, for He alone is the definitive revelation of God to man.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1869343' date='May 17 2009, 11:56 AM']All that can be known with any certainty is that true worship (and true prayer) must always be Christologically and Triadologically structured (i.e., it must be made through the Son, to the Father, in the power and energy of the Holy Spirit) .

Now, as far as God hearing or accepting other prayer forms is concerned, it is not possible to give a definitive answer, because the answer to that question has not been revealed. All that has been revealed is that man must pray through the agency of the incarnate Logos, for He alone is the definitive revelation of God to man.[/quote]

Where does the intercession of the saints (like praying the rosary, prayers to patron saints such as to St. Peregrine for cancer patients, etc.) fit into all this?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1869390' date='May 17 2009, 10:57 AM']Where does the intercession of the saints (like praying the rosary, prayers to patron saints such as to St. Peregrine for cancer patients, etc.) fit into all this?[/quote]
The saints are holy because of Christ, and so prayers to the saints for their intercession is Christological.

[picchick]

Alright, now for the main point of this thread...

Then why does it matter if this prayer, done as you all say: reverence, thankfullness, through the Trinity, praise, intercession, is done with laying of hands, through praise and worship, or anything else?

Does God care? As long as our relationship with Him grows through that prayer, does it matter?

[kafka]

[quote name='picchick' post='1869293' date='May 17 2009, 09:43 AM']You know, I hate when people assume what others will/will not understand. Just say and explain yourself is someone does not understand. I find it insulting when people do this to me so I would ask that you don't do it to others. And if you do not think we will understand it, don't bring it up.[/quote]
it was playful. Hassan and I are friends so we allow for a little jeering.

[quote name='picchick' post='1869713' date='May 17 2009, 08:22 PM']Alright, now for the main point of this thread...

Then why does it matter if this prayer, done as you all say: reverence, thankfullness, through the Trinity, praise, intercession, is done with laying of hands, through praise and worship, or anything else?

Does God care? As long as our relationship with Him grows through that prayer, does it matter?[/quote]
I'm not sure what you are getting at?

You mean do externals matter with regards to prayer?

[picchick]

[quote name='kafka' post='1869723' date='May 17 2009, 08:40 PM']it was playful. Hassan and I are friends so we allow for a little jeering.


I'm not sure what you are getting at?

You mean do externals matter with regards to prayer?[/quote]

No, what I am getting at is that people are critcizing the way that others pray. Praying over someone is wrong. The way we use praise and worship songs are wrong. Charismatic prayer is wrong. If I am driving in my car, and all I say is "Help me God!" then God does not hear that? And those who say a rosary around a campfire, then God does not hear that? However, if these are done for the greater glory of God, do you think that God really cares?

My main point in starting this thread, which perhaps I failed miserably at, was to show people across the different Rites, different Mass forms whatever, that in regards to prayer, I do not think God is that picky. God wants us to talk to Him. God wants us to piase Him. God wants us to be with Him. I do not think that He is going to turn someone away because He didn't say a prayer "the right way".

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='picchick' post='1870958' date='May 19 2009, 10:58 AM']No, what I am getting at is that people are critcizing the way that others pray. Praying over someone is wrong.[/quote]
The Charismatic / Pentecostal heretics confuse simple prayer, which anyone can do, with the authority of praying over someone. One layman has no supernatural authority over another layman, and so one layman cannot pray over another layman, but he can pray for him. The practice of praying over a person is reserved to those with spiritual (i.e., one who is ordained) or natural (i.e., a parent in relation to his children) authority over those placed in their charge by the will of God. Thus, the Church -- as a supernatural family -- is ordered in the same way that a natural family is ordered, i.e., in a hierarchical fashion.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Apotheoun

[MissyP89]

[quote name='picchick' post='1869713' date='May 17 2009, 08:22 PM']Alright, now for the main point of this thread...

Then why does it matter if this prayer, done as you all say: reverence, thankfullness, through the Trinity, praise, intercession, is done with laying of hands, through praise and worship, or anything else?

Does God care? As long as our relationship with Him grows through that prayer, does it matter?[/quote]

It all depends on your intention, just like before. As long as you're not trying to do what a priest does, or show off, or focus more on the music/touch/intercession than on God, I'd say you're good.

(Though I suppose being a moderate can sometimes be grounds for heresy. Trying not to! )