Magic?

[philothea]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1895891' date='Jun 19 2009, 09:31 AM'][quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1895874' date='Jun 19 2009, 09:08 AM']
In terms of real magic, there is no 'white' and 'black'. It all comes from Satan.
If Harry Potter were real, it would be extremely evil and corrupting.[/quote]

So would the the Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia.


[/quote]
Maybe I'm over thinking it, but I do believe there's some difference in the potential corrupting factors.

LotR and Narnia were set (primarily) in other worlds, whereas Harry Potter is set in modern-day England. In Narnia, other than the talking animals, magic is rare and largely bad -- same for LotR.

The magic in Harry Potter is glamorized. Muggles are completely inferior. I could imagine people without a strong religious background subtly encouraged to try witchcraft and spells in search of their own magic.

(Note: I'm sensitive to the issue because I write fantasy and science fiction... though I've largely switched to science fiction because of this concern!)

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

I doubt St. Albert practiced astrology. Maybe you meant astronomy, which is perfectly permissable by the chuch.Its the study of the universe and stars.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

St. Albert the Great (Doctor of the Church) took astrology and turned it into astronomy. He also took alchemy and turned it into chemistry.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='philothea' post='1896125' date='Jun 19 2009, 04:51 PM']So would the the Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia.



Maybe I'm over thinking it, but I do believe there's some difference in the potential corrupting factors.

LotR and Narnia were set (primarily) in other worlds, whereas Harry Potter is set in modern-day England. In Narnia, other than the talking animals, magic is rare and largely bad -- same for LotR.

The magic in Harry Potter is glamorized. Muggles are completely inferior. I could imagine people without a strong religious background subtly encouraged to try witchcraft and spells in search of their own magic.

(Note: I'm sensitive to the issue because I write fantasy and science fiction... though I've largely switched to science fiction because of this concern!)

[/quote]
That's a good point. I also tend to 'overlook' that aspect of fantasy/sci fi when it's very clear that it's a different world or alternate reality. Placing it in modern, mundane times and places is... somewhat different.
For the record though, I read and very much enjoy Harry Potter... as a story. Nothing more.

[picchick]

I like using my magic wand to make all my wishes come true.

I am still a good Catholic.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='picchick' post='1896366' date='Jun 20 2009, 01:14 AM']I like using my magic wand to make all my wishes come true.[/quote]

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='picchick' post='1896366' date='Jun 20 2009, 12:14 AM']I like using my magic wand to make all my wishes come true.

I am still a good Catholic.[/quote]
Is the wand made out of marshmallow? The waving and abracadabra might be unnecessary.

[picchick]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1896369' date='Jun 20 2009, 01:16 AM'][/quote]
You should speak, little man.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1896384' date='Jun 20 2009, 01:25 AM']Is the wand made out of marshmallow? The waving and abracadabra might be unnecessary.[/quote]
No the wand is not made of marshmellow. But if I wish for it it will give me marshmellow.


In all honesty, magic, the real kind, is scary and should not be delt with. However, it is still delt with in this world. I have no problem with fictional magic like Cinderella's transformation or witch's spells in fantasy books. It is when people try to make it in the real world that we start to get into troubled waters.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='philothea' post='1896125' date='Jun 19 2009, 05:51 PM']So would the the Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia.



Maybe I'm over thinking it, but I do believe there's some difference in the potential corrupting factors.

LotR and Narnia were set (primarily) in other worlds, whereas Harry Potter is set in modern-day England. In Narnia, other than the talking animals, magic is rare and largely bad -- same for LotR.

The magic in Harry Potter is glamorized. Muggles are completely inferior. I could imagine people without a strong religious background subtly encouraged to try witchcraft and spells in search of their own magic.

(Note: I'm sensitive to the issue because I write fantasy and science fiction... though I've largely switched to science fiction because of this concern!)

[/quote]
I agree.

I am going to take Narnia out as it is quite obviously an alegory for the Christ story. I could get into the subtle symbolism of the choices in Narnia but that is a bit much I think.

THe Lord of the Rings is not on Earth, magic is scary, even the good magic is awesome and frightening, it is not fun and personally empowering.The Wizards are obviously not normal humans. Perhaps not even human at all. The quest is to destroy the ultimate magical item which binds men to it's power. It is all about the temptation of power ,not the quest for it. It also directly deals with the struggle to maintian ones free will and not become a slave to sin.

Hogwarts is a school for teaching one to gain direct and aabsolute control over well everything. Even others. The muggles are not only inferior but ussually mean and stupid. ( I realize there are exceptions in the books but the rule seems to hold).


Of ocurse there is the purly literary issue. Tolkien and Lewis were much much better writers.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Don John of Austria

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Gregorius' post='1895923' date='Jun 19 2009, 10:24 AM']I would just remember that they are all fiction. Books (and now movies!)meant to entertain. The authors never meant for them to be anything more than that. As long as you remember they are not real and not to trust in such practices in reality, than I see no problem reading them.

Though Harry Potter magic would indeed be corrupting! [/quote]


Not true. Books have all kinds of purposes including to teach and to convince. For example, Narnia is a Christian Alegory there is a lot about it more than entertianment.

[sarcasmguy126]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1895891' date='Jun 19 2009, 09:31 AM']So would the the Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia.

[/quote]

Let me get something straight:

First of all, I like "Harry Potter". It's not the best thing in the world, but it's still very entertaining [i][/i]and[i][/i] has some good messages in it. However, it is a guilty pleasure for me because although the "magic" cannot truly be called occult, it is close enough to real occult practices (i.e. Prof. Trelawney's class) that I can see why it has sparked so much controversy. "Lord of the Rings" and "Narnia" have a clearly defined sense of 'good' and 'bad' magic. Gandalf's power clearly comes from a higher source...Saruman is obviously demonic. Aslan is truly good.

By the same token, though, Harry's scar was caused by his mother's love for him, so I guess that is a positive. And--once again--I really like those books, but I must admit that I can see why some people are concerned about it. It's just that I don't see little kids who read the books saying, "Gee, maybe I really should go read palms, stars, etc. I learned all that stuff from Harry Potter!" That's why all the concern is not legit.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='sarcasmguy126' post='1899543' date='Jun 23 2009, 11:03 AM']Let me get something straight:

First of all, I like "Harry Potter". It's not the best thing in the world, but it's still very entertaining [i][/i]and[i][/i] has some good messages in it. However, it is a guilty pleasure for me because although the "magic" cannot truly be called occult, it is close enough to real occult practices (i.e. Prof. Trelawney's class) that I can see why it has sparked so much controversy. "Lord of the Rings" and "Narnia" have a clearly defined sense of 'good' and 'bad' magic. Gandalf's power clearly comes from a higher source...Saruman is obviously demonic. Aslan is truly good.

By the same token, though, Harry's scar was caused by his mother's love for him, so I guess that is a positive. And--once again--I really like those books, but I must admit that I can see why some people are concerned about it. It's just that I don't see little kids who read the books saying, "Gee, maybe I really should go read palms, stars, etc. I learned all that stuff from Harry Potter!" That's why all the concern is not legit.[/quote]


Well as teacher I have seen kids say" I want to be a witch." ... "where does one study magic?" etc. etc. And i do not mean 4 year olds I mean 12 to 14 year olds.

[Nihil Obstat]

You know what I always found particularly disturbing about Harry Potter?

For a long time, after they introduced it in the Prisoner of Azkaban, they talked about the "Unforgiveable Curses". The premise was that using these was indeed unforgiveable and would get you sent straight to the wizard prison. That was all well and good. What disturbed me is that once things heat up, and the 'good guys' are fighting Death Eaters, and the Order of the Phoenix is reactivated, suddenly all the 'good guys' are using these unforgiveable curses too. Without a second though. Without any mention of these suddenly being forgiveable now.

I never liked that.

[sarcasmguy126]

that is pretty bad.

I agree with whoever said that, from a purely literary standpoint, Tolkien and Lewis are better writers.

Also, it is troubling that Harry and Co. lie and steal, etc. for the "ends" that are justified by "the means". I don't like that.

But they are well-written.

[Dan]

If I may speak from experience....

Quite some time ago ( 30 - 35 years? ), I had walked away from the Catholic Church -- it simply "no longer spoke to me." Which, of course meant I was no longer listening or acting upon her teachings and wisdom.

At any rate, I was "away" for 7 years.

During that time, I explored many of the Eastern philosophies, practices, and so forth.

One thing led me to the next and I ended up involved in the occult. Magic, spells, "New Age" mumbo-jumbo, crystals, and slipping further and further into the darkness.

Simple magic ( I considered to be "white" ) brought me to darker magic.

At the time, I was also an active alcoholic so the three elements ( alcohol, leaving the church, and the dark sciences ) were beating me to a pulp.

Seven years in a downward spiral...

Prayers by my wife and my mother, I believe, started to make the spiral slow down a bit. As it lost some of its momentum, I was able to first look up and then reach up to the saving grace of the Eucharist.

I have no desire to see Harry, I fear he would remind me of where I have been...

Been there, done that, took pictures and still have the tee shirt, I have no reason to go back.

[elizabeth09]

In the Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia, they are telling that the good will always win.

[Angel*Star]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1871434' date='May 19 2009, 11:29 PM']I'll get this thread rolling....


Harry Potter is the devil.

discuss.[/quote]


I let my children read Harry Potter and even see the movies. We discussed it together and they (themselves) realized how ridiculous it was. They enjoyed reading it and discussing it and then moving on to better things. It was no big deal to them. He is not the devil. He is a character in a book.

[elizabeth09]

He is a made-up person. Not to point out, a made-up place as well.

[Ziggamafu]

This August a new Star Wars toy comes out that lets you move a ping pong ball up and down in a tube with your mind alone. You wear a futuristic looking headband that picks up your brain's activity and sends the information to a fan in the tube, adjusting the fan speed accordingly.

The technology has been around for awhile. Was it just a few months ago that the Iraq vet got the cyborg arm, powered and used by thought alone? And the same principles have, in testing, allowed people to surf the web and play a basic videogame using thought alone.

I bet within a mere five years we will begin to see home electronics that are used by thought alone. Give it a decade or two, and this may even apply to cars and other large appliances. Eventually, we may very well be living in a world where everything is normally operated by thought.


Point: the wants of what might be called "good" magic - nearly synonymous with the wants of fantasy - drive our technological advances. The only sense that magic refers to something evil is in the deliberate involvement of the occult; that is, appeal to demonic power rather than God-given, scientific power (even when the science utilized is unknown, for this is the very basis of experimentation).

So by extension, you could even "believe in" say, chakras / auras or something so long as the phenomenon is considered or explored on a strictly scientific level and divorced from any religious contexts that may have been first to notice it. I've seen a wide variety of orthodox Catholic sources use this kind of reasoning in regards to "divination sticks".

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='philothea' post='1871499' date='May 20 2009, 12:10 AM']By medieval magic do you mean things like alchemy?[/quote]

I think alchemy is fascinating, because it didn't compartmentalize the spiritual from the physical.