Need Help Defending The Faith

[Catholic116]

[url="http://reachrecords.com/speak/comments.php?DiscussionID=8976&page=1#Comment_146714"]http://reachrecords.com/speak/comments.php...#Comment_146714[/url]

was just trying to explain some things, now i have people trying to gang up on me and trying to make me contradict myself. any help would be appriciated!!

Much love, God bless

[jeffpugh]

Well, you've said a lot of good stuff, but they're tripping you up on the small things... Christ didn't speak Greek... he used Cephas for rock (which is Aramaic), not Petros/Petra (Greek: masculine and Feminine respectively). I wouldn't have dropped the Mother Theresa quote, quite frankly. They don't understand the context. The damage is done though. You're going off on a lot of topics. They're seemingly nicer than the ones I've had to deal w/ on line before. Glad you've been directing them to more competent places. Lawl, it's typical to get the "former Catholic" to chime in and tell you what you believe. Meh.

Wow, Mary. They're vicious. lawl. It's good you started by putting God at the primacy. Interesting you brought up the rosary. It's all biblical. Don't let them say otherwise. Tell em to read all of the first few chapters of Luke (particularly 2). I think your problem though is your zealous revealing of everything. It may or may not work. The more you tell em, the more targets you give em to throw tomatoes at. Personally, I'd take it piecemeal and let the questions come first, then answer in layers (if you like).

Kings bro: "You don't understand what I said. He revealed all of Himself to us." Wow, huge heresy. That deserves a "where's that in the bible"? I thought God was eternal, inexhaustible? Ask him if his mother knows him more than any other... they discount humanity, y'know?

Just remember, the debate is not for them, but the readers, who may or may not be moved.

Try that out. Be prayerful.

God grant you many years!

Jeff.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Sacred Music Man

[tinytherese]

Welcome to phatmass. Great resources are the defense directory here and [url="http://www.catholic.com/"]http://www.catholic.com/[/url].

I've been involved in nasty online debates too. After a while though, it's best to just leave. If its obvious that they are not the slightest bit interested in having an actual debate and one that is civilized for that matter then you should honestly just leave. I was involved in an absolutely horrible debate once where it was basically, "You are catholic and I hate all catholics. They have nothing of value to say, therefore anything that you have to say must be completely disregarded." Then he flew obscenities at me. I should have left far sooner then I did but I stayed. It was a terrible experience.

After I left I prayed for the people that I debated with. You will win far more converts that way. When St. Stephen was being martyred he prayed for his executioners and guess who one of them became? St. Paul! Just look at the total turn around that happened because of prayer there! It also worked for St. Monica when she prayed for the conversion of her son St. Augustine. We honestly don't give prayer enough credit but it really does work.

[Brother Vinny]

[quote name='Catholic116' post='1871513' date='May 20 2009, 12:27 AM'][url="http://reachrecords.com/speak/comments.php?DiscussionID=8976&page=1#Comment_146714"]http://reachrecords.com/speak/comments.php...#Comment_146714[/url]

was just trying to explain some things, now i have people trying to gang up on me and trying to make me contradict myself. any help would be appriciated!!

Much love, God bless[/quote]

Seems like your opponents are caught up on the Hail, Holy Queen prayer. Can't say as I couldn't have related at one time. I was hung up on Marian devotion just after I reverted. Then a friend explained that every good thing that Mary is to us has been given to her, and to us through her, by God Himself. How is she able to hear our prayers all over the world? God gave her the ability to do so. Does anyone question God could do so?

As to "our life, our sweetness, and our hope," I can say this: Mary's life stand as a model of how we wish our lives could be, the ideal for which we strive--total acceptance of God's will for her life. If we could perfectly emulate her, then we would be as she is, an inheritor of eternal life.

As to the sweetness, it seems to me God's light shines through women of piety in a distinctly feminine way, and Mary is the pious woman [i]par excellence.[/i] "Sweet" is a word I find difficult to apply to a man, but it is inevitable for me to use the word, and others like it, when seeing a woman in whom God is working.

As to hope, it is our hope to be where she is now, united with God the Father and the Son, is it not? Would it also not be our hope that when God reveals his will to us, that we would grant Him our [i]fiat,[/i] just as Mary granted hers?

I hope this helps. Let me know how else I may assist.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Brother Vinny' post='1871548' date='May 20 2009, 01:01 AM']Seems like your opponents are caught up on the Hail, Holy Queen prayer. Can't say as I couldn't have related at one time. I was hung up on Marian devotion just after I reverted. Then a friend explained that every good thing that Mary is to us has been given to her, and to us through her, by God Himself. How is she able to hear our prayers all over the world? God gave her the ability to do so. Does anyone question God could do so?

As to "our life, our sweetness, and our hope," I can say this: Mary's life stand as a model of how we wish our lives could be, the ideal for which we strive--total acceptance of God's will for her life. If we could perfectly emulate her, then we would be as she is, an inheritor of eternal life.

As to the sweetness, it seems to me God's light shines through women of piety in a distinctly feminine way, and Mary is the pious woman [i]par excellence.[/i] "Sweet" is a word I find difficult to apply to a man, but it is inevitable for me to use the word, and others like it, when seeing a woman in whom God is working.

As to hope, it is our hope to be where she is now, united with God the Father and the Son, is it not? Would it also not be our hope that when God reveals his will to us, that we would grant Him our [i]fiat,[/i] just as Mary granted hers?

I hope this helps. Let me know how else I may assist.[/quote]
Werd. That was a tough one to break down. Thanks for sharing that approach

[cmotherofpirl]

People People ANYTIME you run into this stuff personally invite them to Phatmass - that is the purpose of the debate board!!!!!

[tinytherese]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1871633' date='May 20 2009, 09:05 AM']People People ANYTIME you run into this stuff personally invite them to Phatmass - that is the purpose of the debate board!!!!![/quote]

[Oliver]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1871543' date='May 20 2009, 06:57 AM']After a while though, it's best to just leave.[/quote]

Couldnt agree more. I've had a few debates but only against atheists, and usually the opposition has no interest in actual debating. 'You cannot convert someone who is spiritually dead', a quote from Greg Bahnsen. Im glad I've got this place though to look for help and help my faith.

God Bless Phatmass

Edited May 21, 2009 by Oliver

[Oliver]

Just to add on to that quote only the holy spirit can convert them.

[mamalove]

Regarding the Hail, Holy Queen. I once heard it said that the first line "Hail, Holy Queen. Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope" is all in reference to Jesus. Mary is the mother of mercy. Jesus [i]is[/i] mercy, Jesus [i]is[/i] our life, He [i]is[/i] our sweetness and our hope, and Mary is His mother.

[Brother Vinny]

[quote name='mamalove' post='1872739' date='May 21 2009, 02:43 PM']Regarding the Hail, Holy Queen. I once heard it said that the first line "Hail, Holy Queen. Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope" is all in reference to Jesus. Mary is the mother of mercy. Jesus [i]is[/i] mercy, Jesus [i]is[/i] our life, He [i]is[/i] our sweetness and our hope, and Mary is His mother.[/quote]

I'd wondered if that was a possibility, too.

[i]<wishes he knew Latin>[/i]

Could someone knowledgeable in Latin have a peek at the original text and tell me what gender the [s]adjectives[/s] descriptive objects of possession are?

Edited May 21, 2009 by Brother Vinny

[LivingStone]

Oooh. I started reading, and I kind of want to jump in the mix. can i, can i, can i?


Especially Gospel Messenjah's latest message with the 10 questions. I wanna answer...

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Catholic116' post='1871513' date='May 20 2009, 01:27 AM'][url="http://reachrecords.com/speak/comments.php?DiscussionID=8976&page=1#Comment_146714"]http://reachrecords.com/speak/comments.php...#Comment_146714[/url]

was just trying to explain some things, now i have people trying to gang up on me and trying to make me contradict myself. any help would be appriciated!!

Much love, God bless[/quote]

These types of things are better dealt with face to face not word to word. It gives them time to research, refute, etc. leaving you stuck there. No one is going to come to any resolution because they have the safety of anonymity and the control over time. Agree to disagree and pray for them.

[Brother Vinny]

[quote name='LivingStone' post='1872892' date='May 21 2009, 07:39 PM']Oooh. I started reading, and I kind of want to jump in the mix. can i, can i, can i?


Especially Gospel Messenjah's latest message with the 10 questions. I wanna answer... [/quote]

So many strawmen, the fire department has issued a warning.

[Brother Vinny]

I dislike posting after one of my own posts, but maybe each one of us here can take one of Gospel Messenjah's qwerstions and answer it to give Catholic116 a hand.

I'll take #6, since it's easy:

[i]Does the Catholic Church encourage Bible reading or does a priest read the Bible to everyone within the congregation?[/i]

Both.

[LivingStone]

sorry. didn't see this. i did all ten. i can edit them so that you can include your own stuff. yikes.

[Brother Vinny]

[quote name='LivingStone' post='1872940' date='May 21 2009, 10:06 PM']sorry. didn't see this. i did all ten. i can edit them so that you can include your own stuff. yikes. [/quote]

You're cool. Anyone who has Blackshear's "Forgiven" as their avatar is okay in my book. No I'm gonna read what you wrote.

[LivingStone]

you keep beating me to the punch...its because I'm making my posts way too long. I type most of it from notes from classes...takes a bit. good stuff still, maybe i should edit it and make it much shorter.

[LivingStone]

It isn't starting to get heated, per se, but man, they're pulling out quotes from Martin Luther...about why we can't trust saints, the pope, etc.

I think I'm going to hit that "I'lll pray for you" ejection button.

I really like what Fulton Sheen once said:
“There are not over a 100 people in the U.S. that hate the Catholic Church, there are millions however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church, which is, of course, quite a different thing.”

Maybe I'll drop this too. Any idea of how to 'poetically' pull away from the 'discussion'? There's just too many others over there. Maybe I'll refer them all to phatmass. That'd be good.

[Winchester]

mong jong is either illiterate or a liar. There are numerous Biblical citations in the CCC. My bet is liar. I've found plenty of pretending in debates. People pretend they've read something, when in fact, they've usually, at best, read commentary about something, and it seems the vast majority of anti-Catholic religious writers are fond of fabrication.

Yes, or possibly, idiots.