Icons Representing God The Father

[Vincent Vega]

Not sure.

[Selah]

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Selah' date='24 June 2010 - 02:55 PM' timestamp='1277409313' post='2133718']
I dunno. How can you tell?
[/quote]


[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='24 June 2010 - 02:57 PM' timestamp='1277409428' post='2133720']
Not sure.
[/quote]
You ask Apo, that's how!

[Selah]

okay!

[Apotheoun]

It is an icon of Christ, the Ancient of Days, from Holy Trinity Orthodox Church in Parma Ohio:

[url="http://www.holy-trin.org/welcome.html"]Holy Trinity Orthodox Church[/url]


The image used to be posted on their parish website, but was removed a few years ago.

Internet Archive still has the old link: [url="http://web.archive.org/web/20070216031526/http://www.holy-trin.org/Icons/InsideTemple/14_2_Ancient_Days.JPG"]Ancient of Days[/url]

[Apotheoun]

More pictures of the icons at Holy Trinity Orthodox Church (Parma, Ohio) can be found by clicking the link below to Internet Archive wayback machine:

[url="http://web.archive.org/web/20060118001022/http://www.holy-trin.org/"]Holy Trinity Church[/url]

Once the old Holy Trinity parish website comes up, click on the "Holy Trinity Icons" button.

Internet Archive is very slow, and it may not work in bringing up the page the first time. I had to refresh the page several times before it finally worked properly for me.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='13 June 2009 - 07:49 AM' timestamp='1244836147' post='1889164']
In making this poll, I intended the word "icon" to mean any image for Christian veneration; thus, I would say it is not correct to say that most icons are two-dimensional.


[/quote]

Yeah that one caught my attention also. Nearly every icon in our Church with the exception of the murals is three dimensional. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bairnsdale,_Victoria"]here[/url] The Church itself is an icon and possesses an aura of peace. but that's because it is Gods house it should be respected and appreciated but not venerated.

Re thread. As long as the icon is understood to represent God and is an aid to concentration and that any power comes from God not the icon then I see nothing wrong with it. I kiss my crucifix as an act of love to Jesus not the crucifix itself.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[Vincent Vega]

Is there any way to tell if it is an icon or not just by looking at it?
There are a few icon-looking pieces in my local art museum, and I'd venerate them (if I knew how) if I knew they were icons.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='24 June 2010 - 11:52 PM' timestamp='1277437927' post='2133931']
Is there any way to tell if it is an icon or not just by looking at it?
There are a few icon-looking pieces in my local art museum, and I'd venerate them (if I knew how) if I knew they were icons.
[/quote]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='24 June 2010 - 10:52 PM' timestamp='1277437927' post='2133931']
Is there any way to tell if it is an icon or not just by looking at it?
There are a few icon-looking pieces in my local art museum, and I'd venerate them (if I knew how) if I knew they were icons.
[/quote]

It is equally as acceptable to venerate an image like [url="http://frsimon.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/botticelli_annunciation.jpg"]this[/url] as it is to venerate one like [url="http://calindragan.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/ohrid_annunciation_icon.jpg"]this[/url].

An important point to remember is that, in venerating an image, one is not venerating the materials out of which the image is made or even the blessing which may have been given to the image by a priest. One is using the image, as a representation of Christ, our Lady, or a saint, to give honor to the person whom it represents. As long as the image can truly be said to represent such a person in accordance with Catholic tradition, honor can be rendered to that person through the image.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Resurrexi

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='26 June 2010 - 08:09 AM' timestamp='1277496596' post='2134157']
It is equally as acceptable to venerate an image like [url="http://frsimon.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/botticelli_annunciation.jpg"]this[/url] as it is to venerate one like [url="http://calindragan.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/ohrid_annunciation_icon.jpg"]this[/url].

An important point to remember is that, in venerating an image, one is not venerating the materials out of which the image is made or even the blessing which may have been given to the image by a priest. One is using the image, as a representation of Christ, our Lady, or a saint, to give honor to the person whom it represents. As long as the image can truly be said to represent such a person in accordance with Catholic tradition, honor can be rendered to that person through the image.
[/quote]

Yeah! that's what I was trying to say but obviously not doing a good job.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='25 June 2010 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1277437927' post='2133931']
Is there any way to tell if it is an icon or not just by looking at it?
There are a few icon-looking pieces in my local art museum, and I'd venerate them (if I knew how) if I knew they were icons.
[/quote]

I see God in a tree or person. Does that make them Icons?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='25 June 2010 - 02:09 PM' timestamp='1277496596' post='2134157']
It is equally as acceptable to venerate an image like [url="http://frsimon.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/botticelli_annunciation.jpg"]this[/url] as it is to venerate one like [url="http://calindragan.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/ohrid_annunciation_icon.jpg"]this[/url]. [/quote]
The former is a painting with a religious subject, while the latter is an icon.

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='25 June 2010 - 02:09 PM' timestamp='1277496596' post='2134157']An important point to remember is that, in venerating an image, one is not venerating the materials out of which the image is made or even the blessing which may have been given to the image by a priest. One is using the image, as a representation of Christ, our Lady, or a saint, to give honor to the person whom it represents. As long as the image can truly be said to represent such a person in accordance with Catholic tradition, honor can be rendered to that person through the image.
[/quote]
Your post expresses the position of the West since the time of the Renaissance; while the East - on the other hand - continues to follow the traditions and canons of the Holy Fathers in making sacred icons.

Here are a few of things that help an Eastern Christian to differentiate between an icon and a painting with a religious theme:

(1) Does the image follow the aesthetic rules of the Holy Fathers, that is, does it use what scholars today call "reverse perspective" in order to convey the eschatological reality in which the saint or the event depicted exists as glorified in Christ; or does it use the naturalistic approach of "linear perspective," which has dominated Western religious images since the Renaissance, and which presents an image of this world.

(2) Does the image follow the dogmatic motifs that are sanctioned by the Church's rule of faith.

(3) Does the iconographer possess the orthodox faith (i.e., is he a member of the Church in good standing), and does he follow the ascetic discipline imposed upon those who write sacred icons.

(4) Does the iconographer work to portray the memory of the Church in the icon, or does he attempt to draw attention to himself and his craft through the use of his own peculiar creative imagination.

And finally, (5) has the image between properly sanctioned by the Church's hierarchy, who - in blessing the image for veneration by the faithful - attest to the presence of God's theophanic and deifying energy within the holy icon.

These points, which are not intended to be exhaustive, are helpful when it comes to telling the difference between an icon, which is a theological reality (i.e., a prayer of the whole Church), and a religious painting, which - however beautiful - simply represents the skills and imagination of the artist.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 June 2010 - 06:11 PM' timestamp='1277507494' post='2134242']
The former is a painting with a religious subject, while the latter is an icon.
[/quote]

Do you honestly think that there would be a problem if someone knelt before the latter image and said an Ave, rendering hyperdulia to our Lady through the image of her?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='25 June 2010 - 06:58 PM' timestamp='1277513919' post='2134323']
Do you honestly think that there would be a problem if someone knelt before the latter image and said an Ave, rendering hyperdulia to our Lady through the image of her?
[/quote]
I only venerate icons as determined by my Church's tradition from the Holy Fathers.

[Selah]

[quote]
I only venerate icons as determined by my Church's tradition from the Holy Fathers. [/quote]

How are icons venerated?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 June 2010 - 08:11 PM' timestamp='1277514709' post='2134348']
I only venerate icons as determined by my Church's tradition from the Holy Fathers.
[/quote]

It isn't as if the earliest Christians had icons written in the Byzantine style common in the Eastern churches today. Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Alexandria, and Irenaeus of Lyons probably would have venerated images that look more like [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:XV14_-_Roma,_Museo_civiltà_romana_-_Adorazione_dei_Magi_-_sec_III_dC_-_Foto_Giovanni_Dall'Orto_12-Apr-2008.jpg"]this[/url] than like [url="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pMqNaWEUTt8/SkOfQqwDVAI/AAAAAAAACS8/tInX1HmXhC0/s400/20,+Damaskinos,+Adoration+of+the+Magi.jpg"]this[/url].

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='25 June 2010 - 07:24 PM' timestamp='1277515459' post='2134363']
It isn't as if the earliest Christians had icons written in the Byzantine style common in the Eastern churches today. Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Alexandria, and Irenaeus of Lyons probably would have venerated images that look more like [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:XV14_-_Roma,_Museo_civiltà_romana_-_Adorazione_dei_Magi_-_sec_III_dC_-_Foto_Giovanni_Dall'Orto_12-Apr-2008.jpg"]this[/url] than like [url="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pMqNaWEUTt8/SkOfQqwDVAI/AAAAAAAACS8/tInX1HmXhC0/s400/20,+Damaskinos,+Adoration+of+the+Magi.jpg"]this[/url].
[/quote]
Rexi, why are you concerned about what I do? I simply do not venerate as an icon anything that does not conform to the tradition and canons of my sui juris Church.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 June 2010 - 08:27 PM' timestamp='1277515660' post='2134366']
Rexi, why are you concerned about what I do? I simply do not venerate as an icon anything that does not conform to the tradition and canons of my sui juris Church.
[/quote]

I am concerned with and troubled by your implication that it would be wrong to venerate a Catholic image of our Lord, our Lady, or a saint that is not in the Byzantine style.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='25 June 2010 - 07:33 PM' timestamp='1277515995' post='2134371']
I am concerned with and troubled by your implication that it would be wrong to venerate a Catholic image of our Lord, our Lady, or a saint that is not in the Byzantine style.
[/quote]
I said that I would not venerate such images in the way that I do an icon. What others do is beyond my control.