Should Teeth Get Pulled?

[CatherineM]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1874180' date='May 23 2009, 10:59 PM']It is evidence thou, also its not just my situation. I know thousands like me.

Do you even know what you're talking about? Psychiatry is a pseudo science. There is no medical evidence to suggest that a "chemical imbalance" and all those other myths exist. If you had a thyroid malfunction, that can be tested and proven medically with a simple blood tests. "chemical imbalances", etc. cannot be proven with a blood test. Given that reality, nobody knows what is the proper dose for what individual, or even if that is the proper chemical to treat such a disease.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not speaking out of line. I'd delt with my grandmothers mental illness since I was a child. She's schizophentic, amongst other diagnoses.

Reza[/quote]

First off, I'm impressed that you know a thousand people. I've lived in several states, and a couple of different countries, and I don't know a thousand people, let alone a thousand like me. Actually there isn't anyone else like me, thankfully.

I take acceptance to your classification of Psychiatry as a pseudo science. That's what Scientologists believe, but I'm surprised that the Orthodox do. My husband has Schizophrenia (see I can even spell it right). His mother and great grandmother and two cousins also have it. My mother's first husband also had it which is why she was so upset when I married Austin. Some of my first clients had schizophrenia, which is one of the reasons I wasn't afraid to marry one. By the way, the word schizophrenic is frowned on by all the state, national, and international Schizophrenia Societies. It's considered a derogatory label, and individuals with this disease aren't just the disease, they are actually people first.

You are speaking out of line if you are in anyway implying that people with serious mental illness shouldn't be seeing psychiatrists and taking their prescribed medications. People with schizophrenia are always looking for permission to go off their medications because they can be very difficult to take, and from a deep desire to no longer have the disease and wear the label. Even saying offhanded remarks like this on an open website forum might be read by someone who desperately want to hear the nonsense you are spouting.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1874184' date='May 24 2009, 12:15 AM']First off, I'm impressed that you know a thousand people. I've lived in several states, and a couple of different countries, and I don't know a thousand people, let alone a thousand like me. Actually there isn't anyone else like me, thankfully.[/quote]

ROFL.

[quote]I take acceptance to your classification of Psychiatry as a pseudo science. That's what Scientologists believe, but I'm surprised that the Orthodox do. My husband has Schizophrenia (see I can even spell it right). His mother and great grandmother and two cousins also have it. My mother's first husband also had it which is why she was so upset when I married Austin. Some of my first clients had schizophrenia, which is one of the reasons I wasn't afraid to marry one. By the way, the word schizophrenic is frowned on by all the state, national, and international Schizophrenia Societies. It's considered a derogatory label, and individuals with this disease aren't just the disease, they are actually people first.

You are speaking out of line if you are in anyway implying that people with serious mental illness shouldn't be seeing psychiatrists and taking their prescribed medications. People with schizophrenia are always looking for permission to go off their medications because they can be very difficult to take, and from a deep desire to no longer have the disease and wear the label. Even saying offhanded remarks like this on an open website forum might be read by someone who desperately want to hear the nonsense you are spouting.[/quote]

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1874182' date='May 23 2009, 09:10 PM']Lol, wrong.

[b]In the U.S. during the 1940’s and 50’s, the treatment was administered mostly to people with severe mental illnesses. During the last few decades, researchers have been attempting to identify the effectiveness of ECT, to learn how and why it works, to understand its risks and adverse side effects, and to determine the best treatment technique. Today, ECT is administered to an estimated 100,000 people a year, primarily in general hospital psychiatric units and in psychiatric hospitals. It is generally used in treating patients with severe depression, acute mania, and certain schizophrenic syndromes. ECT is also used with some suicidal patients, who cannot wait for antidepressant medication to take effect.[/b]

Source: [url="http://www.nmha.org/go/information/get-info/treatment/electroconvulsive-therapy-ect"]http://www.nmha.org/go/information/get-inf...ive-therapy-ect[/url][/quote]

Again, you're taking your information from sites that are biased. "Chemical imbalance" is just a theory. Go to any doctors office to ask for a blood test regarding it, there is no such thing.

[quote]Chemical imbalance is one theory about the cause of mental illness. Other causes that are debated include psychological and social causes.

The basic concept is that neurotransmitter imbalances within the brain are the main causes of psychiatric conditions and that these conditions can be improved with medication which corrects these imbalance. The phrase originated from the scientific study of brain chemistry. In the 1950s the monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) and tricyclic antidepressants were accidentally discovered to be effective in the treatment of depression[1]. These findings and other supporting evidence led Joseph Schildkraut to publish his paper called "The Catecholamine Hypothesis of Affective Disorders" in 1965.[2] Schildkraut associated low levels of neurotransmitters with depression.

Research into other mental illnesses such as schizophrenia also found that too little activity of certain neurotransmitters was correlated to these disorders. In the scientific community this hypothesis has been referred to as the Monoamine Hypothesis. This hypothesis has been a major focus of research in the fields Pathophysiology and Pharmacotherapy for over 25 years [3] and led to the development of new classes of drugs such as SSRIs (selective-serotonin reuptake inhibitors)[4]. This conceptual framework has been challenged within the scientific community, though no other demonstrably superior hypothesis has emerged. While the hypothesis has been shown to be simplistic and lacking, there is sufficient evidence to consider it as a useful heuristic in the aiding of our understanding of brain chemistry and explaining pharmacotherapy.[5] [3] Wayne Goodman, Chair of the FDA Psychopharmacological Advisory Committee, has described the serotonergic theory of depression as a "useful metaphor" for understanding depression, though not one that he uses with his own psychiatric patients.[6] Recently, psychiatrist Peter Kramer stated that the serotonin theory of depression had been declared dead prematurely.[7] Kramer argues that recent scientific research actually shows a definitive role for serotonin deficiency in depression. An analysis of the studies Kramer cites argues that such statements are premature[/quote]

That's Wikipedia, more neutral. Even [url="http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mental-Health/chemical-imbalance-testing/show/266596"]http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mental-Health...ing/show/266596[/url] confirms that there is no blood test.

[quote]Rofl, wrong.

[b]
Common chemical imbalances related to emotional disorders such as anxiety and depression include:

* Reduced availability of neurotransmitters like Serotonin, Dopamine, Norepinephrine, GABA and Acetylcholine.
* Increased levels of toxic neurochemicals such as Homocysteine
* Lower levels of serum Magnesium, Zinc or Potassium
* Unhealthy, or deficient levels of essential vitamins like B6, B9, B12 and Vitamin-C
* Undersupply of key cofactors like amino acids that are used to help transport neurotransmitter precursors into the blood-brain barrier.
* Increased cortisol stress hormone levels

[/b]

Source: [url="http://www.anxiety-and-depression-solutions.com/insight_answers/chemical_imbalance.php"]http://www.anxiety-and-depression-solution...l_imbalance.php[/url][/quote]

This is a theory, as the evidence that I'd provided says, there is no blood test and scientic evidence that proves it's existance. When my grandmother was diagnosed, my mother, as ignorant as ever, asked for medical evidence and they were very straight forward, there is no blood test. My wife was once very depressed, and the whole "chemical imbalance" was presented and she asked for a blood test and they were very clear, there is no medical evidence as such. Psychiatry is a pseudo science.

[quote]Usually when an individual argues their point, they tend to defend it with explanations.[/quote] not with those that attack those that they don't agree with, with insults from the start.

[quote]And just as you should not lecture individuals on bias and education, you should also not lecture individuals on how "open" or "closed" they are.[/quote]

you're still young, so I won't comment on this...

Reza

[CatherineM]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1874186' date='May 23 2009, 11:27 PM']Again, you're taking your information from sites that are biased. "Chemical imbalance" is just a theory. Go to any doctors office to ask for a blood test regarding it, there is no such thing.



That's Wikipedia, more neutral. Even [url="http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mental-Health/chemical-imbalance-testing/show/266596"]http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mental-Health...ing/show/266596[/url] confirms that there is no blood test.



This is a theory, as the evidence that I'd provided says, there is no blood test and scientic evidence that proves it's existance. When my grandmother was diagnosed, my mother, as ignorant as ever, asked for medical evidence and they were very straight forward, there is no blood test. My wife was once very depressed, and the whole "chemical imbalance" was presented and she asked for a blood test and they were very clear, there is no medical evidence as such. Psychiatry is a pseudo science.

not with those that attack those that they don't agree with, with insults from the start.



you're still young, so I won't comment on this...

Reza[/quote]

I'm not young, and you are sounding more and more like a Scientologist. They are known to pretend to be other things and go on websites to make these kinds of claims. There is not a blood test to diagnose my brain injury, but that doesn't keep it from being a medical fact. Of course my brain injury is a good excuse to explain why I am wasting my time on a Saturday night talking to a person of your obvious limitations when I could be spending time with my husband.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1874184' date='May 23 2009, 09:15 PM']First off, I'm impressed that you know a thousand people. I've lived in several states, and a couple of different countries, and I don't know a thousand people, let alone a thousand like me. Actually there isn't anyone else like me, thankfully.[/quote]

I'm involved in the natural remedies communities and have lied in a grip of states too.

[quote]I take acceptance to your classification of Psychiatry as a pseudo science. That's what Scientologists believe, but I'm surprised that the Orthodox do. My husband has Schizophrenia (see I can even spell it right). His mother and great grandmother and two cousins also have it. My mother's first husband also had it which is why she was so upset when I married Austin. Some of my first clients had schizophrenia, which is one of the reasons I wasn't afraid to marry one. By the way, the word schizophrenic is frowned on by all the state, national, and international Schizophrenia Societies. It's considered a derogatory label, and individuals with this disease aren't just the disease, they are actually people first.[/quote]

Nobody said that all Orthodox do, just like not all Roman Catholics agreed wit the pscyhiatric community. There are many Roman Catholics that believe in natural remedies too. In regards to it being "offensive", I'd never heard this before. Two of my sisters are social workers and also have never heard this before. My grandmother has been arrested numerous times before she lived with my family because of her condition, and it was also referrred to as schizaphrenia.

[quote]You are speaking out of line if you are in anyway implying that people with serious mental illness shouldn't be seeing psychiatrists and taking their prescribed medications. People with schizophrenia are always looking for permission to go off their medications because they can be very difficult to take, and from a deep desire to no longer have the disease and wear the label. Even saying offhanded remarks like this on an open website forum might be read by someone who desperately want to hear the nonsense you are spouting.[/quote]

No I'm not speaking out of line, I'm being honest that there is no evidence such as that found through a blood test to prove such a condition exists. I'm for further research to find natural cures to such problems, but I don't believe in giving medicine to individuals blindly. I believe in scientific evidence and the bottom line is that there is no blood test to prove these conditions. We're told that they "need to take this drug" to replace a supposed chemical that is missing in their brains function, but since there is no evidence, such as the particular evidence that is found in a thyroid malfunction, it's impossible to tell what particular chemical is missing.

People with a thyroid malfunctioin also take medicine. A thyroid malfunction also causes depression but it can be proven through a blood test. That's why a thyroid malfunction is not a pseudo science.

In regards to the comment about those people that have been supposedly diagnosed with such a condeition not taking their medicine, its common. My grandmother was also rebellious with her meds. Truthfully, I don't blame her because there is so many problems with psychiatry. Don't get me wrong, I didn't like the responsibility of dealing with a woman out of her mind, but I don't agree with psychiatry either.

Reza

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1874190' date='May 23 2009, 09:35 PM']I'm not young, and you are sounding more and more like a Scientologist. They are known to pretend to be other things and go on websites to make these kinds of claims. There is not a blood test to diagnose my brain injury, but that doesn't keep it from being a medical fact. Of course my brain injury is a good excuse to explain why I am wasting my time on a Saturday night talking to a person of your obvious limitations when I could be spending time with my husband.[/quote]

...and this is a common response to people that object to psychiatry. You label them as scientologists. You know that many people that are not scientologists also don't agree with psychiatry. You don't have to be a scientologist in order to be opposed to psychiatry. Just like you don't have to be Roman Catholic in order to appreciate St. Therese and believe that she's a Saint.

Obviously you weren't here when I'd first began posting. I've been posting here for years, thou I'd taken a break for a while, those that have been here longer then you, know that I'm an Orthodox because of my posts themselves. I'd defended Orthodoxy and had very intense discussions here for years. This is the first time that someone has stooped to your level of labeling me a scientologist because I believe in natural cures and remedies, congradulations on that! I hope you understand that most natural remedies and cures are employed by native americans and I am native american. Suggesting that someone is a scientologist because their against the pseudo-science of psychology and are for natural remedies could be taken as an insult to native americans.

It doesn't stop with native americans either, many cultures have natural remedies that have been tested and proven for thousands of years.

A brain injury and a supposed "chemical imbalance" are completely different. That's apples and oranges, while a thyroid malfunction and the theory of "chemical imbalance" are not that different. A thyroid malfunction is a condition in which a particular chemical is also not produced as it should, and also is related to depression but the difference, as I'd said previously if you were listening, was that a thyroid malfunction can be proven with scientic evidence and a blood test, but most of the theories of psychiatry cannot.

In reguards to your comment about "brain limitations", that's uncalled for. Just because someone disagrees with you, and has specific reasons to why they disagrees with you, you have to resort to insults and stereotypical labels. This is like if I were to say that because you're roman catholic you support sexual abuse, not only is it not true but it's uncalled for and immature.

By the way, I never said that you were young, it was a comment that was directed at the other poster, whom I'd quoted when I'd made that comment, if you read the post rather then react with pure emotions.

Reza

Edited May 24, 2009 by RezaLemmyng

[XIX]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1874194' date='May 24 2009, 01:47 AM']...and this is a common response to people that object to psychiatry. You label them as scientologists. You know that many people that are not scientologists also don't agree with psychiatry. You don't have to be a scientologist in order to be opposed to psychiatry. Just like you don't have to be Roman Catholic in order to appreciate St. Therese and believe that she's a Saint.


Obviously you weren't here when I'd first began posting. I've been posting here for years, thou I'd taken a break for a while, those that have been here longer then you, know that I'm an Orthodox because of my posts themselves. I'd defended Orthodoxy and had very intense discussions here for years. This is the first time that someone has stooped to your level of labeling me a scientologist because I believe in natural cures and remedies, congradulations on that! I hope you understand that most natural remedies and cures are employed by native americans and I am native american. Suggesting that someone is a scientologist because their against the pseudo-science of psychology and are for natural remedies could be taken as an insult to native americans.[/quote]
She didn't call you a scientologist. She said you remind her of scientologists. Huge difference there.

She even said, "That's what Scientologists believe, but I'm surprised that the Orthodox do."

Clearly indicating that you are not a Scientologist.

[quote]A brain injury and a supposed "chemical imbalance" are completely different. That's apples and oranges, while a thyroid malfunction and the theory of "chemical imbalance" are not that different. A thyroid malfunction is a condition in which a particular chemical is also not produced as it should, and also is related to depression but the difference, as I'd said previously if you were listening, was that a thyroid malfunction can be proven with scientic evidence and a blood test, but most of the theories of psychiatry cannot.[/quote]
They are very different, but Catherine has shown that in this case, they are 100% analogous. She was merely drawing a comparison, and her point was a good one. Just because a specific kind of test (in this case, a blood test) doesn't exist for a given ailment, doesn't imply that the ailment is non-existent.

[quote]In reguards to your comment about "brain limitations", that's uncalled for. Just because someone disagrees with you, and has specific reasons to why they disagrees with you, you have to resort to insults and stereotypical labels. This is like if I were to say that because you're roman catholic you support sexual abuse, not only is it not true but it's uncalled for and immature.[/quote]
I agree, I don't think that comment was called for.

[quote]By the way, I never said that you were young, it was a comment that was directed at the other poster, whom I'd quoted when I'd made that comment, if you read the post rather then react with pure emotions.[/quote]
I didn't think she was acting just based off of emotions. I'm not really sure where you got that from to be honest. I think she was just giving an argument like anyone else.


meh.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1874145' date='May 24 2009, 03:29 AM']Seriously, this is a question to ask a competent dentist, not the peanut gallery at Phatmass.

It's a medical/dental issue, not a moral issue.[/quote]
Exactly!

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1874168' date='May 24 2009, 04:31 AM']For supposedly having done so much research, you seem to not know what you're talking about. You do NOT have to go under to have wisdom teeth removed. I had four removed without ever having gone under. The same goes for two of my siblings, and my sister-in-law.[/quote]
My husband didn't have to go under. I did, but that's only because I'm allergic to local anaesthetics. While I've had stitches without any local anaesthetic (they just made me get high on laughing gas), I can't imagine them cutting into my jaw without knocking me out. It was with sodium pentathol - man that stuff is hard to wake up from!

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1874190' date='May 24 2009, 05:35 AM']I'm not young, and you are sounding more and more like a Scientologist. They are known to pretend to be other things and go on websites to make these kinds of claims. There is not a blood test to diagnose my brain injury, but that doesn't keep it from being a medical fact. Of course my brain injury is a good excuse to explain why I am wasting my time on a Saturday night talking to a person of your obvious limitations when I could be spending time with my husband.[/quote]
No blood test to diagnose my malaligned tendons or that my patella was degenerating, either. The degeneration didn't show up on the MRI, either, but only showed up when I went under the knife. Yes, I realise that a bum knee is much different from a chemical imbalance, but the point is that the absence of a blood test for something doesn't indicate that the problem isn't real or that the diagnosis is wrong.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='XIX' post='1874201' date='May 23 2009, 10:16 PM']She didn't call you a scientologist. She said you remind her of scientologists. Huge difference there.[/quote]

[quote]She even said, "That's what Scientologists believe, but I'm surprised that the Orthodox do."[/quote]

[quote]Clearly indicating that you are not a Scientologist.[/quote]

She also went into a rant about scientologists "disguising themselves blah blah blah" on this message board, hinting at the idea.


[quote]They are very different, but Catherine has shown that in this case, they are 100% analogous. She was merely drawing a comparison, and her point was a good one. Just because a specific kind of test (in this case, a blood test) doesn't exist for a given ailment, doesn't imply that the ailment is non-existent.[/quote]

She didn't have a point, because she used something such a brain injury that is not remotely the same. Psychiatrists such a chemical is absent in the supposed "chemical imbalance". If that's the case, not only would it show up on a blood test but in order to replace a particular chemical with another you have to have evidence that the condition exists. Psychiatriests do not.

This is why Psychiatrists in the past decade were finding out, after the fact, that drugs like paxil was causing teens to commit suicide. They claimed that those teens also had a "chemical imbalance" and suggested that paxil was solution, it wasn't until a mass amount of teens were committing suicide that they realized that it was a bad idea. If there was scientific evidence involved, they would have never assumed that paxil was the cure.


[quote]I agree, I don't think that comment was called for.[/quote]


[quote]I didn't think she was acting just based off of emotions. I'm not really sure where you got that from to be honest. I think she was just giving an argument like anyone else.[/quote]

What's Ironic is that if a non-Roman Catholic was to say that about her, they'd get an elevated warning level, which I have gotten many times, but since she said it, and is roman catholic, it must be acceptable according to the standards of this board. This is why I didn't participate for an extended period of time. People with differences of opinion are not welcome.


[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1874222' date='May 23 2009, 11:55 PM'] Exactly![/quote]

[quote]My husband didn't have to go under. I did, but that's only because I'm allergic to local anaesthetics. While I've had stitches without any local anaesthetic (they just made me get high on laughing gas), I can't imagine them cutting into my jaw without knocking me out. It was with sodium pentathol - man that stuff is hard to wake up from![/quote]

Like I'd said, I've talked to many oral surgeons and nearly all of them said that they didn't want the individual getting their wisdom teeth removed while awake.

[quote]No blood test to diagnose my malaligned tendons or that my patella was degenerating, either. The degeneration didn't show up on the MRI, either, but only showed up when I went under the knife. Yes, I realise that a bum knee is much different from a chemical imbalance, but the point is that the absence of a blood test for something doesn't indicate that the problem isn't real or that the diagnosis is wrong.[/quote]

The absence of scientific evidence, particularly a blood test in this case is important and if it were the case, it would show up on a blood test. There are alot of doctors that are against these psychiatric drugs that don't believe in these theories for this particular reason. Blood tests do not detect injuries, such as muscle injuries because it has nothing to do with the blood stream, etc. This is common sense.

Psychiatry is a pseudo science and that's a fact. These are the same people that put our children on amphetamines because they "can't pay attention". I'm of course referring to the pseudo diagnosis of "ADD" or "ADHD" and the perscription of adderall that is given to children. Look at scientic facts of these drugs. Adderall is classified as an amphetamine, just like meth. Just like meth it also can cause heart problems, it also can get you high, its a street drug just like meth. I'm of course speaking from someone that was disgnosed as "ADD", whos mother opposed the drug. Ritalin is also a street drug with similar side affects. I'm from the anti-drug era, where we tell children that doing drugs is wrong, and it's even worse if adults are giving it to them as a "perscription". Maybe I'm the only one, maybe in the modern era is alright to give children amphetamines, but it won't ever be acceptable in my house.

Reza

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1874192' date='May 24 2009, 01:40 AM']No I'm not speaking out of line, I'm being honest that there is no evidence such as that found through a blood test to prove such a condition exists. I'm for further research to find natural cures to such problems, but I don't believe in giving medicine to individuals blindly. I believe in scientific evidence and the bottom line is that there is no blood test to prove these conditions. We're told that they "need to take this drug" to replace a supposed chemical that is missing in their brains function, but since there is no evidence, such as the particular evidence that is found in a thyroid malfunction, it's impossible to tell what particular chemical is missing.[/quote]


The chemicals aren't missing in the brain, the chemical are there and not being properly used, so this is not something you do run a simple blood test for the entire general depressed population. Its a much simpler to simply talk to the person to diagnose depressions. It might come eventually, but the brain is just a bit harder to access than the bloodstream in terms of what chemicals are working and what are not. [There is a test for blood level seratonin but that is related to slow growing tumors of the intestines, not used commonly for depression testing.] The evidence is that people get better from use of these drugs.
Seratonin et al. is NOT something you ever want to add to the brain, but like insulin you do need to use it properly.
That should be understandable to anyone who think natural cures work. There is rarely ANY scientific basis for them except "granny" says it works, but people have been buying into patent medicines forever .Some of them do work and are many are understood when finally researched and developed into drugs, but people have been taking them for years based on blind faith. THere are far more facts and stats on these particular meds but you dismiss out of had because you can't understand them? How sad.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1874245' date='May 24 2009, 06:08 AM']The chemicals aren't missing in the brain, the chemical are there and not being properly used, so this is not something you do run a simple blood test for the entire general depressed population. Its a much simpler to simply talk to the person to diagnose depressions. It might come eventually, but the brain is just a bit harder to access than the bloodstream in terms of what chemicals are working and what are not. [There is a test for blood level seratonin but that is related to slow growing tumors of the intestines, not used commonly for depression testing.] The evidence is that people get better from use of these drugs.
Seratonin et al. is NOT something you ever want to add to the brain, but like insulin you do need to use it properly.
That should be understandable to anyone who think natural cures work. There is rarely ANY scientific basis for them except "granny" says it works, but people have been buying into patent medicines forever .Some of them do work and are many are understood when finally researched and developed into drugs, but people have been taking them for years based on blind faith. THere are far more facts and stats on these particular meds but you dismiss out of had because you can't understand them? How sad.[/quote]

This is a humorous post, so I not going to respond....again...research the significance of a blood test. Assuming that someone has a specific condition from counciling? Seriously... that's like a dentist not taking x-rays. My wife, when being diagnosed with a specific case of depression, was given drugs without a blood test too, and it's so dangerous [and she got a second opinion] because it could be the thyroid that also causes depression. She chose natural methods and has success with them. The success isn't just based upon "granny saying so", there is actual research for natural methods too...but once again Americans ways are superior, so we should just keep giving children amphetamines [which Americans consume 90% of as opposed to Britains 10%].

Reza

[CatherineM]

Reza-I had no way of knowing that you were Native American. My mother's first husband was Cherokee, so my two older half-brothers, as well as my nieces, nephews and great nieces and nephews are as well, so I do not have a prejudice against Native Americans. You, of course, would also have had no way of knowing that.

I questioned as to whether you were representing Scientology because they also call psychiatry a pseudo-science. Since you listed yourself as a Coptic Orthodox, of which I know very little, I was questioning as to whether this is a religious dogma of your faith, or something else. The reason I went into a "rant" about Scientologists is because my husband has constant skirmishes with them here. When he was asked to testify before the legislature on a Community Treatment Order bill, there were three there trying to testify against CTO's. Luckily Austin was familiar with who they were and was able to let the legislatures know so that they could be asked qualifying questions under oath. Having had little exposure to the alternative medical community, I had no way of knowing that they also deem psychiatry to be a pseudo-science. Thank you for the education.

As to my remark about your brain limitations, I apologize. That was not at all what I intended to say. I was trying to say that there was no further reason for debate because your mind is closed to what I was saying, just as mine is to your position. I've had a bad brain injury, and I sometimes have trouble coming up with the word that is appropriate. It is much more pronounced with my oral communication. If someone holds up a banana, my brain will sometimes translate it as "pencil." My written communication is usually better, but fatigue can bring out "sundowner's syndrome." If I'm going to have skips in the warped vinyl record that is my brain, it will usually be in the evening.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1874186' date='May 24 2009, 12:27 AM']Again, you're taking your information from sites that are biased. "Chemical imbalance" is just a theory. Go to any doctors office to ask for a blood test regarding it, there is no such thing.

That's Wikipedia, more neutral. Even [url="http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mental-Health/chemical-imbalance-testing/show/266596"]http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mental-Health...ing/show/266596[/url] confirms that there is no blood test.[/quote]

You sneer at me for posting information from MEDICAL websites, and then you go on and cite WIKIPEDIA - a website that, while informative, is NOT credible.

[quote]This is a theory, as the evidence that I'd provided says, there is no blood test and scientic evidence that proves it's existance. When my grandmother was diagnosed, my mother, as ignorant as ever, asked for medical evidence and they were very straight forward, there is no blood test. My wife was once very depressed, and the whole "chemical imbalance" was presented and she asked for a blood test and they were very clear, there is no medical evidence as such. Psychiatry is a pseudo science.[/quote]

Just because there is no blood test for an illness does not mean that that illness does not exist or is "pseudo." What an incredibly ignorant statement for you to make.

[quote]not with those that attack those that they don't agree with, with insults from the start.[/quote]

I never insulted you. In fact, if I do so recall, YOU are the one pulling out the age card - calling me a "little girl" with your condescending attitude.

[quote]you're still young, so I won't comment on this...[/quote]

Clearly my point has gone completely over your head.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1874239' date='May 24 2009, 01:44 PM']Like I'd said, I've talked to many oral surgeons and nearly all of them said that they didn't want the individual getting their wisdom teeth removed while awake.[/quote] I'm sure there are many who prefer to knock them out completely. I've yet to meet one, but we live in different areas.

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1874239' date='May 24 2009, 01:44 PM']The absence of scientific evidence, particularly a blood test in this case is important and if it were the case, it would show up on a blood test. There are alot of doctors that are against these psychiatric drugs that don't believe in these theories for this particular reason. Blood tests do not detect injuries, such as muscle injuries because it has nothing to do with the blood stream, etc. This is common sense.

Psychiatry is a pseudo science and that's a fact. These are the same people that put our children on amphetamines because they "can't pay attention". I'm of course referring to the pseudo diagnosis of "ADD" or "ADHD" and the perscription of adderall that is given to children. Look at scientic facts of these drugs. Adderall is classified as an amphetamine, just like meth. Just like meth it also can cause heart problems, it also can get you high, its a street drug just like meth. I'm of course speaking from someone that was disgnosed as "ADD", whos mother opposed the drug. Ritalin is also a street drug with similar side affects. I'm from the anti-drug era, where we tell children that doing drugs is wrong, and it's even worse if adults are giving it to them as a "perscription". Maybe I'm the only one, maybe in the modern era is alright to give children amphetamines, but it won't ever be acceptable in my house.[/quote]
I won't pretend to know a lot about psychiatry or psychology. There are definitely some quacks out there who use their patients as guinnea pigs to test certain medications (my father went to one, and it almost killed him, since he was also on other meds for his blood pressure and such). However, I've also met a very competent psychologist. Now, I do often think that some docs (of any specialty) are too quick to prescribe a pill instead of probing further to find other causes or see if there are other treatments. Sometimes the patients don't realise they can ask the doctor if there other treatments, just so they know all the options, and the pros and cons of each option. Believe me, I'm not a fan of just prescribing things without looking at all the options, because I've been burned by that (by being put on the pill to "treat" me when it turns out there was nothing hormonally wrong).

Question: can a CT scan show chemical imbalances by seeing how different areas of the brain are working? Seems to make sense to me, but I really have no idea.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1874288' date='May 24 2009, 10:16 AM']Question: can a CT scan show chemical imbalances by seeing how different areas of the brain are working? Seems to make sense to me, but I really have no idea.[/quote]

They are in the process of trying many different kinds of scans to diagnose both schizophrenia and bipolar, but they haven't had success as yet because they believe that schizophrenia is actually a spectrum of illnesses. There are some who are studying it as almost a diabetes of the brain, or a bipolar type 3 (type 1 being primarily manic and type 2 being mostly on the depressive side). On family studies where there is a high prevalence of schizophrenia and bipolar (like my husband's), they are finding a defect on the same gene. Most researchers believe that schizophrenia and bipolar are related illnesses. They are using schizophrenia medications on individuals with bipolar who haven't responded to traditional bipolar meds with success. There was an excellent study done in Sweden on this that was published in the Lancet in January. I realize the Lancet isn't in the same league with Wikipedia, but some people read it with respect. As a scientist, I'm sure you probably put more credence in Science and Nature than Wikipedia.

Sometimes they make a diagnosis simply because the individual gets better after being on a certain medication. Doctors would love to be able to diagnose with a blood test, but sometimes things are just a little more complicated than that. I remember fighting for female AIDS patients to be recognized because there wasn't a test, and the definition only included opportunistic infections that men suffered from. Sometimes medical progress happens by accident. A very difficult to treat condition called primary pulmonary hypertension, has been found to be helped by viagra. Someone who had it, used viagra, and got better. Doctors being human, do the best they can, sometimes make mistakes, but hopefully we learn from them. I guess another reason this is such a sore subject for me is that my brother Ray is an internist who does diabetic research within his practice. I can get my Irish up when physicians are denigrated (which wasn't done by you of course).

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1874308' date='May 24 2009, 05:22 PM']They are in the process of trying many different kinds of scans to diagnose both schizophrenia and bipolar, but they haven't had success as yet because they believe that schizophrenia is actually a spectrum of illnesses. There are some who are studying it as almost a diabetes of the brain, or a bipolar type 3 (type 1 being primarily manic and type 2 being mostly on the depressive side). On family studies where there is a high prevalence of schizophrenia and bipolar (like my husband's), they are finding a defect on the same gene. Most researchers believe that schizophrenia and bipolar are related illnesses. They are using schizophrenia medications on individuals with bipolar who haven't responded to traditional bipolar meds with success. There was an excellent study done in Sweden on this that was published in the Lancet in January. I realize the Lancet isn't in the same league with Wikipedia, but some people read it with respect. As a scientist, I'm sure you probably put more credence in Science and Nature than Wikipedia.

Sometimes they make a diagnosis simply because the individual gets better after being on a certain medication. Doctors would love to be able to diagnose with a blood test, but sometimes things are just a little more complicated than that. I remember fighting for female AIDS patients to be recognized because there wasn't a test, and the definition only included opportunistic infections that men suffered from. Sometimes medical progress happens by accident. A very difficult to treat condition called primary pulmonary hypertension, has been found to be helped by viagra. Someone who had it, used viagra, and got better. Doctors being human, do the best they can, sometimes make mistakes, but hopefully we learn from them. I guess another reason this is such a sore subject for me is that my brother Ray is an internist who does diabetic research within his practice. I can get my Irish up when physicians are denigrated (which wasn't done by you of course).[/quote]
OK, thanks. I know they're still learning a lot about schizophrenia. I really should read up on it more.

Wasn't the discovery of penicillin somewhat accidental? So yes, medical advancement is sometimes accidental.

Oh, and I'm related to doctors, too, so I understand.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1874239' date='May 24 2009, 08:44 AM']She also went into a rant about scientologists "disguising themselves blah blah blah" on this message board, hinting at the idea.




She didn't have a point, because she used something such a brain injury that is not remotely the same. Psychiatrists such a chemical is absent in the supposed "chemical imbalance". If that's the case, not only would it show up on a blood test but in order to replace a particular chemical with another you have to have evidence that the condition exists. Psychiatriests do not.

This is why Psychiatrists in the past decade were finding out, after the fact, that drugs like paxil was causing teens to commit suicide. They claimed that those teens also had a "chemical imbalance" and suggested that paxil was solution, it wasn't until a mass amount of teens were committing suicide that they realized that it was a bad idea. If there was scientific evidence involved, they would have never assumed that paxil was the cure.[/quote]
A chemical imbalance in the brain will not show up on a blood test because it has nothing to do with the blood. The chemicals are being transmitted between neurons in the brain, not through the blood.

And the reason it was teens was because a teenagers brain is not the same as an adult brain, and therefore the chemicals work differently. Yes, they did make a mistake in applying the results of tests in one population to the general population, but that does not mean that anything having to do with psychiatry is wrong.





[quote]What's Ironic is that if a non-Roman Catholic was to say that about her, they'd get an elevated warning level, which I have gotten many times, but since she said it, and is roman catholic, it must be acceptable according to the standards of this board. This is why I didn't participate for an extended period of time. People with differences of opinion are not welcome.






Like I'd said, I've talked to many oral surgeons and nearly all of them said that they didn't want the individual getting their wisdom teeth removed while awake.



The absence of scientific evidence, particularly a blood test in this case is important and if it were the case, it would show up on a blood test. There are alot of doctors that are against these psychiatric drugs that don't believe in these theories for this particular reason. Blood tests do not detect injuries, such as muscle injuries because it has nothing to do with the blood stream, etc. This is common sense.

Psychiatry is a pseudo science and that's a fact. These are the same people that put our children on amphetamines because they "can't pay attention". I'm of course referring to the pseudo diagnosis of "ADD" or "ADHD" and the perscription of adderall that is given to children. Look at scientic facts of these drugs. Adderall is classified as an amphetamine, just like meth. Just like meth it also can cause heart problems, it also can get you high, its a street drug just like meth. I'm of course speaking from someone that was disgnosed as "ADD", whos mother opposed the drug. Ritalin is also a street drug with similar side affects. I'm from the anti-drug era, where we tell children that doing drugs is wrong, and it's even worse if adults are giving it to them as a "perscription". Maybe I'm the only one, maybe in the modern era is alright to give children amphetamines, but it won't ever be acceptable in my house.

Reza[/quote]
Certainly there are drugs that are over-used and some things that are over-diagnosed, but to compare one diagnosis to another and decide that all of the meds are bad is as bad as the doctors assuming because certain drugs can be used on adults, they can be used on teens.

Psychiatry being a pseudo-science most certainly isn't a fact, but your opinion.

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1874267' date='May 24 2009, 09:52 AM']This is a humorous post, so I not going to respond....again...research the significance of a blood test. Assuming that someone has a specific condition from counciling? Seriously... that's like a dentist not taking x-rays. My wife, when being diagnosed with a specific case of depression, was given drugs without a blood test too, and it's so dangerous [and she got a second opinion] because it could be the thyroid that also causes depression. She chose natural methods and has success with them. The success isn't just based upon "granny saying so", there is actual research for natural methods too...but once again Americans ways are superior, so we should just keep giving children amphetamines [which Americans consume 90% of as opposed to Britains 10%].

Reza[/quote]
X-rays don't show everything. Neither do MRIs or CT scans. So, yes, I can see a dentist/doctor/physical therapist not having x-rays taken and figuring out what is wrong without them! Should your wife have had blood tests to rule out other possible conditions? Probably. But once again, you're using ONE example of poor doctoring to make a sweeping generalization. I once had a really bad experience in the ER, does this mean I should dismiss the entire medical profession, because I had one really bad doctor? You seem to be doing thinking that doctors are perfect, and should know everything. Sorry, but they are human. They make mistakes. They don't know everything. The body is a massive, complex machine, with each one being built a little bit differently. It is hard to be perfect 100% of the time.

There is actual research for natural methods, but there is also actual research for pharmacological methods. I took a pharmacology class where we learned about both. Some work, some don't, for both the pharamcological methods and the natural methods. However, like the pharmacological methods, the natural aspects also need to be used with care --the reason they work is because they change something in the body, the same way pharmacological drugs do. I wouldn't use either to the exclusion of all other options.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1874267' date='May 24 2009, 10:52 AM']This is a humorous post, so I not going to respond....again...research the significance of a blood test. Assuming that someone has a specific condition from counciling? Seriously... that's like a dentist not taking x-rays. My wife, when being diagnosed with a specific case of depression, was given drugs without a blood test too, and it's so dangerous [and she got a second opinion] because it could be the thyroid that also causes depression. She chose natural methods and has success with them. The success isn't just based upon "granny saying so", there is actual research for natural methods too...but once again Americans ways are superior, so we should just keep giving children amphetamines [which Americans consume 90% of as opposed to Britains 10%].

Reza[/quote]
I find your posts laughable as well, and I have researched it and know competant professionals in the field. It has nothing to do with being American, simple competance works anywhere in the world.

[Nihil Obstat]

RezaLemmyng, have you never heard of the blood brain barrier?
Seriously, I'm doing grade twelve bio, and even I know about this.

You can't expect a blood test to detect chemical imbalances in the brain because blood is purposely NOT connected to the brain directly. Those neutrotransmitter chemicals have nothing to do with the blood. Nothing at all.

You keep telling us to do the research, but you've neglected this incredibly basic piece of scientific knowledge.