The Creed

[Resurrexi]

. . .

Edited May 25, 2009 by Resurrexi

[TeresaBenedicta]

Wasn't it first in the Greek anyway? The Latin would then be a translation from the greek 'homoousios'.

The Greek has a deeper meaning in that it denotes both "same substance" and "same essence".

[Resurrexi]

Yes, it was originally in Greek (ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί -- homoousion to Patri). The Latin version, however, has the same as the Greek since it was read by the Fathers of the Ecumenical Council of Trent (cf. Session III). Moreover, the Latin texts of the liturgy are their own theological "locus."

Edited May 25, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

As an Eastern Christian I would avoid translating "homoousios" as "one in being" or "of one substance", because the former phrase concerns energy (not essence), while the latter has Sabellian connotations. The best translation of the theological term "homoousios" would be "of one essence," "one in essence," or "of the same essence."

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1889121' date='Jun 12 2009, 02:17 PM']As an Eastern Christian I would avoid translating "homoousios" as "one in being" or "of one substance", because the former phrase concerns energy (not essence), while the latter has Sabellian connotations.[/quote]

The Latin Church has always used [i]consubstantialis[/i], which contains the word [i]substantia[/i], that is, [i]substance[/i].

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

φῶς ἐκφωτός, Θεὸνἀλη θινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀλη θινοῦ,γεννη θέντα οὐποιη θέντα, [b]ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί[/b], δι' οὗ τὰπάντα ἐγένετο.

Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not created,[b] of one essence with the Father [/b]through Whom all things were made.

-[i]From the Niceo-Constantinoplian Creed[/i]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889148' date='Jun 12 2009, 12:48 PM']The Latin Church has always used [i]consubstantialis[/i], which contains the word [i]substantia[/i], that is, [i]substance[/i].[/quote]
The word [i]substance[/i] / [i]subsistence[/i] is related to the word [i]hypostasis[/i] in the Greek. Consequently the use of the word [i]substance[/i] should be avoided when translating the Greek word [i]homoousios[/i] into English.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Vasilius Konstantinos' post='1889149' date='Jun 12 2009, 02:51 PM']φῶς ἐκφωτός, Θεὸνἀλη θινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀλη θινοῦ,γεννη θέντα οὐποιη θέντα, [b]ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί[/b], δι' οὗ τὰπάντα ἐγένετο.

Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not created,[b] of one essence with the Father [/b]through Whom all things were made.

-[i]From the Niceo-Constantinoplian Creed[/i][/quote]

Shouldn't that be "from just one of many translations of the Niceo-Constantinoplian Creed"?

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1889150' date='Jun 12 2009, 02:52 PM']The word [i]substance[/i] / [i]subsistence[/i] is related to the word [i]hypostasis[/i] in the Greek. Consequently the use of the word [i]substance[/i] should be avoided when translating the Greek word [i]homoousios[/i] into English.[/quote]

While both substantia and hypostasis are etymologically from "to stand under" in their respective languages, [i]substantia[/i], like [i]ousia[/i], actually means "that of which a thing consists, the being, essence."

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889158' date='Jun 12 2009, 03:18 PM']Shouldn't that be "from just one of many translations of the Niceo-Constantinoplian Creed"?[/quote]

Since the First two Councils were in Greek and it was documented in Greek, why other with any other?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Vasilius Konstantinos' post='1889160' date='Jun 12 2009, 03:35 PM']Since the First two Councils were in Greek and it was documented in Greek, why other with any other?[/quote]

I was speaking of the English translation you gave under the Greek.

On a side note, in the Catholic Church, the Latin version of the Creed has the same authority as the Greek since the Fathers of later ecumenical councils (e.g. Trent) made the profession of the faith using the Latin version.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889158' date='Jun 12 2009, 01:18 PM']While both substantia and hypostasis are etymologically from "to stand under" in their respective languages, [i]substantia[/i], like [i]ousia[/i], actually means "that of which a thing consists, the being, essence."[/quote]
Being ([i]einai[/i]) and essence ([i]ousia[/i]) are not related in the teaching of the Cappadocian Fathers, whose influence in Eastern Triadology is foundational for understanding the Nicene teaching on God; instead, being ([i]einai[/i]) is related to energy ([i]energeia[/i]), and so the use of that English word, i.e., [i]being[/i], is inappropriate in the creed. That said, the word [i]substance[/i] is also inappropriate in English translations, because -- as you noted in your post -- it is related to [i]hypostasis[/i] and this would give the creed a quasi-Sabellian meaning.

The Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed (A.D. 381) is an intentionally modified form of the original Nicene Creed (A.D. 325), because the Greek words [i]ousia[/i] and [i]hypostasis[/i], which had been synonymous for the pagan Greeks, were no longer -- by the time of the Second Ecumenical Council -- taken to mean the same thing within the Christian theological tradition.

Essence ([i]ousia[/i]) is beyond being, and that is why it is -- and will always be -- unknowable to creatures.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1889168' date='Jun 12 2009, 03:55 PM']Being ([i]einai[/i]) and essence ([i]ousia[/i]) are not related in the teaching of the Cappadocian Fathers, whose influence in Eastern Triadology is foundational for understanding the Nicene teaching on God; instead, being ([i]einai[/i]) is related to energy ([i]energeia[/i]), and so the use of that English word [i]being[/i] is inappropriate in the creed. That said, the word [i]substance[/i] is also inappropriate in English translations, because -- as you noted in your post -- it is related to [i]hypostasis[/i] and this would give the creed a quasi-Sabellian meaning.[/quote]

Are you accusing the Bishops of Rome who used the term [i]substantia [/i]as a translation of [i]ousia [/i]of quasi-Sebellianism?

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1889168' date='Jun 12 2009, 03:55 PM']The Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed (A.D. 381) is an intentionally modified form of the original Nicene Creed (A.D. 325), because the Greek words [i]ousia[/i] and [i]hypostasis[/i], which had been synonymous for the pagan Greeks, were no longer -- by the time of the Second Ecumenical Council -- taken to mean the same thing within the Christian theological tradition.[/quote]

Have you taken it into consideration that [i]substantia[/i] and [i]persona[/i] no longer meant the same thing for the Pope St. Damasus I as they had meant for Marcus Aurelius?

Edited June 12, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889173' date='Jun 12 2009, 02:04 PM']Have you taken it into consideration that [i]substantia[/i] and [i]persona[/i] no longer meant the same thing for the Pope St. Damasus I as they had meant for Marcus Aurelius?[/quote]
Person and subsistence / substance do not mean the same thing today, and they never have meant the same thing. They are connected to each other in Christian theology in order to avoid the doctrinal errors of Sabellianism.

Person ([i]prosopon[/i]) means face or countenance; while substance / subsistence ([i]hypostasis[/i]) means concrete existence. The Cappadocians associated the two terms (i.e., substance / [i]hypostasis[/i] and person / [i]prosopon[/i]) in order to deny the modalist implications of the word [i]person[/i] ([i]prosopon[/i]) when taken alone.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889165' date='Jun 12 2009, 03:53 PM']I was speaking of the English translation you gave under the Greek.

On a side note, in the Catholic Church, the Latin version of the Creed has the same authority as the Greek since the Fathers of later ecumenical councils (e.g. Trent) made the profession of the faith using the Latin version.[/quote]

Considering that I only recognize the Seven Councils as legitimate, show me one in the Seven that supports your claim that Latin would have been used.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Vasilius Konstantinos' post='1889180' date='Jun 12 2009, 04:15 PM']Considering that I only recognize the Seven Councils as legitimate, show me one in the Seven that supports your claim that Latin would have been used.[/quote]

As a Catholic, I base my beliefs on the teachings of twenty-one ecumenical councils, not seven.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889165' date='Jun 12 2009, 01:53 PM']On a side note, in the Catholic Church, the Latin version of the Creed has the same authority as the Greek since the Fathers of later ecumenical councils (e.g. Trent) made the profession of the faith using the Latin version.[/quote]
In its document clarifying the use and meaning of the filioque the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity stated the following:

"The Catholic Church acknowledges the conciliar, ecumenical, normative, and irrevocable value, as expression of the one common faith of the Church and of all Christians, of the Symbol professed in Greek at Constantinople in 381 by the Second Ecumenical Council."

No creed peculiar to any one particular liturgical tradition can be of equal value to the creed that was issued by the Second Ecumenical Council.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889182' date='Jun 12 2009, 02:20 PM']As a Catholic, I base my beliefs on the teachings of twenty-one ecumenical councils, not seven.[/quote]
I base my beliefs, as a Catholic, on the teachings of the Seven Ecumenical Councils.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1889183' date='Jun 12 2009, 04:22 PM']In its document clarifying the use and meaning of the filioque the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity stated the following:

"The Catholic Church acknowledges the conciliar, ecumenical, normative, and irrevocable value, as expression of the one common faith of the Church and of all Christians, of the Symbol professed in Greek at Constantinople in 381 by the Second Ecumenical Council."

No creed peculiar to any one particular liturgical tradition can be of equal value to the creed that was issued by the Second Ecumenical Council.[/quote]

I will base my understanding of the Creed on the teachings of the Ecumenical Councils. I do not care about what a document that claims no magisterial authority says.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889190' date='Jun 12 2009, 02:29 PM']I will base my understanding of the Creed on the teachings of the Ecumenical Councils. I do not care about what a document that claims no magisterial authority says.[/quote]
I seem to have touched a nerve.

I too accept the authority of the ecumenical councils, all seven of them, as normative for the whole Church.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1889191' date='Jun 12 2009, 04:31 PM']I too accept the authority of the ecumenical councils, all seven of them, as normative for the whole Church.[/quote]

The Holy Roman Church, the mother and mistress of all Churches, recognizes more than seven Ecumenical Councils.