Late Term Abortion Provider

[dairygirl4u2c]

i do think there's an argument to be made about abortion generally, and war. but im way to uncetain about that to advocate it.

what's ironic, is im pretty moderate about abortion early on. oposed to it, with many qualifications etc. ironic cause those who are opposed to all at all points, are often not as militarnt as me, here.

[dairygirl4u2c]

also, the problem of authority is easisly met in the future, if it does't in fact exist now. i mean, maybe we shouldn't engage in war as of now, but we should at least form coalitions to get better leaders etc. if that never happens, id concede just war probblay isn't met. im nt a leader sufficieent unto myself, i admit.
but im pretty sure we could form the leadership, in fact, if it's lacking. maybe im wrong. but my point is it can be done, and it doesn't have to be like the pope or the USA government, right?

and if i were not to fault PM and others for not engaging in a just war cause better leaders were not gotten... id at least fault them for not trying to get it. this at least, is what should be debated, in my mind, the common denominator of what's debatable to me.

Edited June 1, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[TeresaBenedicta]

I don't know what the answer to the abortion problem is. But we can't just go off shooting people at will. Perhaps it is time to rebel against the government in a unified manner. I don't know.

But this guy committed murder, plain and simple.

[jumpfrog]

I'm kind of puzzled by one thing...no one ever talks about the women, the mothers. After all, the doctor does not run around performing abortions, late-term or not, on unwillling moms. The women seek out abortions. They ask the doctor to perform a medical procedure. They, along with their unborn child, are the ones most affected by the whole situation, but no one seems to want to talk about this.

In Tiller's case, it seems that some women sought out abortions for trivial reasons, but others came to his clinic because their unborn child had significant birth defects. It would be ideal and I guess edifying for moms to go through the birth, even if it is nearly certain that their child will die during or shortly after the birth. But, many women do not want to go through this, and they choose not to, which is their current legal right.

Really, it is the women who are the one's making the most serious moral choice. Once a mom comes to the clinic, she is trusting the doctor to do what she has requested. At that point the doctor has an obligation of care to her, in other words, to provide the service she came to him for. Now, we believe abortion is wrong at any stage, but it is ultimately the mom who decides. She, in fact, is the 'murderer', because she requests and authorizes the doctor to do what she cannot safely do herself.

I saw in the post above that Tiller had reportedly pressured his employees to basically lie to patients, and so he might be a creepy guy, and a dishonest person, and a untrustworthy physician, but he still did not perform abortions on unwilling moms, as far as I know.

Let's not forget the women in these kinds of debates...they are of course very important! They are not hapless victims...there are many choices for them to bear a child, get special care etc. It is the women who make the choices. Who would think of doing violence to a woman who has had an abortion, either as retribution, or of prevention...because if she had one abortion, she might have more...

Really...I would think doctors would likely be happier doing prenatal care and deliveries...more money in it for one thing, an ongoing clinical relationship with their patients and bringing life into the world, instead of ending it...really helping women and their children.

Right now, abortion providers are 'helping women', as they believe is right, and doing it at huge personal risk. I am not saying they are right, but I think labeling them as murderers etc. is not really helpful. Real murderers tend to hide what they do, and run away from their crimes. War criminals who killled many people would probably not risk their lives in order to do more killing, so I don't think it is really helpful to make that comparison either. Doctors live in this screwed up culture along with the rest of us, and they are get screwed up with it. They think that they are helping women. They are wrong, but they don't know it.

[VoTeckam]

This thread is so disappointing.

Not even Christ, in all of his authority, responded violently to those who tortured and ultimately murdered him. So someone please explain to me under what authority is the abortionsit's murderer acting?

For those of you defending this action: Have you 1) Prayerfully protested at abortion mills 2) Actively advocated the state and national legislature for protection for the unborn 3) Spent time at a crisis pregnancy center to offer hope to pregnant women in desperate situation? If you can not answer yes to all of those you have not exausted your options in this battle. Shooting abortionists is the easy way out. It's the cowardly way out. It is Satan's way out.

[cmotherofpirl]

I am sorry that he was gunned down. I think it much more appropriate if he had been run over by a truck.

[MithLuin]

I will not deny that I am happy this man is no longer practicing medicine.

But I certainly cannot approve of the man who walked into a [i]church[/i] and shot him dead in cold blood. That action is [i]clearly[/i] morally wrong, and cannot be justified.

Is it wrong for this abortionist to kill babies? Yes. Is it legal? Yes. So, the options for stopping him are limited, and of course people have been diligent in protesting him and bringing legal suits against him.

Vigilante justice is flawed specifically because there is no check to make sure justice is actually served. Watch the [i]Ox-bow Incident[/i]. Watch [i]Boondock Saints[/i] - if you decide to take matters into your own hands and start making life or death decisions for others, you are going to make mistakes. Playing God is one of the ultimate forms of pride, and that arrogance alone is probably enough to get you damned before you even pull the trigger.


There had to be ways to put him out of business short of killing him.

[VoTeckam]

IF his death had been accident, whether that be by speeding truck or lightening strike, then it would ba appropriate to speculate if God was enacting His justice. What happened last weekend was not God's justice, it was some prideful person's misguided ATTEMPT at justice.

[MithLuin]

Put another way, I can't just go around offing unrepentant sinners using the logic that they are leading others astray. While God could certainly do that....I am not God, and it's not my call. Commiting a sin to prevent that very same sin is...warped.

[kenrockthefirst]

As a side note, I find it sad that this man was an usher for the "church" where he was killed. The fact that "a church" even tacitly endorsed his livelihood by having him act in any kind of official capacity casts a poor light on it, and unfortunately also contributes to the sense of fragmentation that exists within the Body of Christ today.

[cmotherofpirl]

I don't think we can go around killing them, because that is descending to their level. On the other hand, I'm pleased he is dead.

[StColette]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1880267' date='Jun 1 2009, 10:58 AM']As a side note, I find it sad that this man was an usher for the "church" where he was killed. The fact that "a church" even tacitly endorsed his livelihood by having him act in any kind of official capacity casts a poor light on it, and unfortunately also contributes to the sense of fragmentation that exists within the Body of Christ today.[/quote]

ELCA supports abortion under several different circumstances, which is probably why they didn't see a problem with him being an usher.

[url="http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Social-Statements/Abortion.aspx"]http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social...s/Abortion.aspx[/url]

[Jesus_lol]

you do know a lot of serial killers have justified their actions this way?
lust is a sin too, guess Pictin had it right feeding prostitutes to pigs?
you are ridiculous.


"i have never killed a man, but i have read many an obituary with great pleasure" is about all that applies here.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Jesus_lol

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1880412' date='Jun 1 2009, 03:15 PM']you do know a lot of serial killers have justified their actions this way?
lust is a sin too, guess Pictin had it right feeding prostitutes to pigs?
you are ridiculous.


"i have never killed a man, but i have read many an obituary with great pleasure" is about all that applies here.[/quote]
Mark Twain was always good with a quote.

[Hassan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1880418' date='Jun 1 2009, 02:31 PM']Mark Twain was always good with a quote.[/quote]
Yeah, I like

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true."



Anyway, why do you all hate this chap so much? I mean is it just because he was an abortion provider?

[dairygirl4u2c]

any pleasure is derived is merely something an individual needs to work on- it's not probably something one should enjoy. righteous indignation, maybe okay.
the cold truth is that he probably should have been assassinated as he was. that doesn't have to do with said 'feelings'. perhaps im wrong to say assassinate, i doubt it. but it's at least debateable. all the 'clearly wrong' etc, is clearly wrong. and notice, they usual lack decent arguments, it's just 'cause i said so etc'. (i know they could form something decent, but even then id be against it as mostly fluff and inconsistency)
i feel sorry for the guy a bit. but that doesn't mean anything. i feel sorry for the guys who must die in a just war, or who are executed. eerily and morbidly bad about it, such sometimes that i feel like that's enough reason not to do it, ever. but, 'feelings' must fall to reason.
in this case, the man who shot him was a hero. (not a coward as some say... if anyone is one, the only cowards are those who wont do it themselves, or are so warped as to think he should still be alive today
(minus certain exceptsions like if ya think his death didn't accomplish anything- in which case i just disagree as a factual issue, a reasonable factual dispute as i see it, and not necessarily in principal about it

Edited June 1, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[StColette]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1880421' date='Jun 1 2009, 02:41 PM']Anyway, why do you all hate this chap so much? I mean is it just because he was an abortion provider?[/quote]

I don't think anyone hates him, at least, I don't. Praying for his soul and praying for his family because both desperately need it.

[thessalonian]

They were such fine upstanding members of their church. Finding it hard to be too sorrowful about this. The man was a serial killer and the government approved. Justice was served by this action even if I don't agree with taking the law in to our own hands.

[Hassan]

[quote name='StColette' post='1880423' date='Jun 1 2009, 01:47 PM']I don't think anyone hates him, at least, I don't. Praying for his soul and praying for his family because both desperately need it.[/quote]

[i]I am sorry that he was gunned down. I think it much more appropriate if he had been run over by a truck. [/i]

I don't know what else you call that.

I guess my question is what makes this one doctor so much worse than any other.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1880428' date='Jun 1 2009, 03:57 PM'][i]I am sorry that he was gunned down. I think it much more appropriate if he had been run over by a truck. [/i]

I don't know what else you call that.

I guess my question is what makes this one doctor so much worse than any other.[/quote]
60,000 dead babies.