Abscondita In Deo

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1881147' date='Jun 2 2009, 11:14 AM']We must remember that our translation of the Glory Be is around 500 years old.

"World without end" was an idiomatic expression in Elizabethan English that meant about the same thing as "and unto the ages of ages" meant to the Romans. In Early Modern English, the word "world" meant "age".

In Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, we say "ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula", that is, "begotten from the Father before all ages". In the Anglican [i]Book of Common Prayer[/i] written in the 16th Century, this phrase is translated "Begotten of His Father before all worlds".

In modern English, the expression "world without end" would literally mean "though endless ages", or, more figuratively "forever and ever".[/quote]

in the convent, we did not pray it with the traditional words, but with

[i]Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:
As it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen[/i]

There were only certain parts on certain days where we would pray "world without end. Amen." Any thoughts on why this is so? I was there and I have no idea why we would pray it this way...

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='StColette' post='1882041' date='Jun 3 2009, 12:14 PM']I agree with hsmom I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by addressing it publicly.[/quote]

It's okay.

[kafka]

a little blown out of proportion I think.

I've basically done the same thing in the past Resurrex.

Another thing to consider about the 'world without end' or "and unto the ages of ages" is that Time never ends since God after the 'last day' meaning after the General Resurrection and Judgment creates a New Earth. The New Earth will be found in Time and Place. God makes all things new again and Time continues anew. Its a new beginning.

[Apotheoun]

Below is a corrected version of my original post in this thread. In this re-posting I have substituted the proper Greek words for the ones I copied and pasted incorrectly the first time:

The Eastern Catholic Churches are experiencing translation disputes on this very topic, i.e., whether "forever and ever" is a proper translation of the biblical expression "αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων" in liturgical translations. I would tend to say that it is not a proper translation, because it fails to convey the eschatological nature of the biblical term, which refers primarily to God's [i]kairotic[/i] interventions into history and not to time ([i]chronos[/i]) as simple duration, i.e., as temporal extension.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1882561' date='Jun 3 2009, 10:33 PM']Below is a corrected version of my original post in this thread, in which I have substituted the proper Greek words for the ones I copied and pasted incorrectly the first time:

The Eastern Catholic Churches are experiencing translation disputes on this very topic, i.e., whether "forever and ever" is a proper translation of the biblical expression "αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων" in liturgical translations. I would tend to say that it is not a proper translation, because it fails to convey the eschatological nature of the biblical term, which refers primarily to God's [i]kairotic[/i] interventions into history and not to time ([i]chronos[/i]) as simple duration, i.e., as temporal extension.[/quote]

Interesting. In my opinion, "et in saecula saeculorum" (and its Greek, Old Church Slavonic, Coptic, Geez, Arabic, and Syraic counterparts) would be best translated "and unto ages of ages". If I recall correctly, however, this will not be improved by the new English translation of the Roman Rite.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1882569' date='Jun 3 2009, 08:42 PM']Interesting. In my opinion, "et in saecula saeculorum" (and its Greek, Old Church Slavonic, Coptic, Geez, Arabic, and Syraic counterparts) would be best translated "and unto ages of ages". If I recall correctly, however, this will not be improved by the new English translation of the Roman Rite.[/quote]
I agree . . . "unto the ages of ages" is the literal -- and the best -- English translation of this biblical phrase as it appears in the various ancient languages.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1882608' date='Jun 3 2009, 11:18 PM']I agree . . . "unto the ages of ages" is the literal -- and the best -- English translation of this biblical phrase as it appears in the various ancient languages.[/quote]

Yes. I doubt that "in saecula saeculorum" was an idiomatic Latin phrase before it was translated from the Greek, so why shouldn't we Anglophones also translate it literally?

Edited June 4, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1882625' date='Jun 3 2009, 09:38 PM']Yes. I doubt that "in saecula saeculorum" was an idiomatic Latin phrase before it was translated from the Greek, so why shouldn't we Anglophones also translate it literally?[/quote]
I agree, and like the phrase "and with your spirit", which is used in both scripture and liturgical prayer, the phrase "unto the ages of ages" conveys a deeper theological content beyond its simple literal meaning. Theologically the word age ([i]αἰών[/i]) is connected to with time as [i]kairos[/i] (i.e., the proper hour or moment in which God acts), while the forever ([i]ἀΐδιος[/i]) concerns time as [i]chronos[/i] (i.e., simple temporal duration).

Edited June 4, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1882625' date='Jun 3 2009, 11:38 PM']Yes. I doubt that "in saecula saeculorum" was an idiomatic Latin phrase before it was translated from the Greek, so why shouldn't we Anglophones also translate it literally?[/quote]
It's a valid question. I'd prefer "ages of ages" or at least something more to that effect (to the point that, frequently, I'll pray the Glory Be in Latin just to avoid the issue even if the rest of my prayers are in English). However, whether it came from Greek or not, it clearly originates from a specific idiomatic way of communicating a sense of eternity in Latin, so we have to appreciate the intention behind the modern English version, even if we don't care for the translation.

[kafka]

I still recommend this not getting blown out of proportion. In my opinion, what you both need to realize is that Resurrexi doubtfully took all the 'rules' into consideration before he started the thread. And besides that we are Xians, we dont live by the letter of the law. In my opinion, one has to presume he was acting sincerely and out of enthusiasm and love, and simply go with it.

Edited June 4, 2009 by kafka

[dominicansoul]

i agree with bro. adam's sentiments in that post...

and with kafka's on this not getting blown out of proportion...

[Apotheoun]

One of my friends at the Byzantine Forum believes that the Greek word "αἰών" should not be translated at all, but should simply be transliterated as "aeon" instead, just as other theologically important words from Hebrew and Greek are transliterated and not translated (e.g., Amen, Alleluia, Sabaoth, and Theotokos, etc.).

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1883237' date='Jun 4 2009, 03:46 PM']One of my friends at the Byzantine Forum believes that the Greek word "αἰών" should not be translated at all, but should simply be transliterated as "aeon" instead, just as other theologically important words from Hebrew and Greek are transliterated and not translated (e.g., Amen, Alleluia, Sabaoth, and Theotokos, etc.).[/quote]
why does he think aeon is important and should not be translated?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1883265' date='Jun 4 2009, 02:18 PM']why does he think aeon is important and should not be translated?[/quote]
Because aeon is a theological term that concerns God's kairotic interventions into time (chronos).

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1883237' date='Jun 4 2009, 03:46 PM']One of my friends at the Byzantine Forum believes that the Greek word "αἰών" should not be translated at all, but should simply be transliterated as "aeon" instead, just as other theologically important words from Hebrew and Greek are transliterated and not translated (e.g., Amen, Alleluia, Sabaoth, and Theotokos, etc.).[/quote]

I wouldn't agree that "αἰών" should merely be transliterated, since the word was translated into Latin as "saeculum". I also don't think "Θεοτόκος" should be left untranslated, as "Dei Genetrix" used in the Latin liturgy in the same manner that "Θεοτόκος" is in the Greek. It would seem that, in matters of liturgical translation, we should follow the same patterns that ancient liturgical translators did.