A Glimpse Of What My Nightmares Look Like

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1885052' date='Jun 6 2009, 08:08 PM']I actually ended up having a dream about a weird "Mass" last night...

The priest "consecrated" tortillas (Would tortillas even be considered valid matter?).[/quote]

IF the tortillas were made [i]solely[/i] of whole wheat flour and water and were unleavened...then yes, that would be valid matter. But since most tortilla recipes include both grease and leavening in addition to the flour and water, it is unlikely.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1885447' date='Jun 7 2009, 04:48 AM']IF the tortillas were made [i]solely[/i] of whole wheat flour and water and were unleavened...then yes, that would be valid matter. But since most tortilla recipes include both grease and leavening in addition to the flour and water, it is unlikely.[/quote]

For validity, the bread to be consecrated does not have to be unleavened. Leavened bread is just as valid as unleavened, as the tradition of the Eastern Churches shows. However, in the Latin Church it is only licit to use leavened bread (cf. Code of Canon Law 926).

"It follows therefore that bread made from another substance, even if it is grain, or if it is mixed with another substance different from wheat to such an extent that it would not commonly be considered wheat bread, does not constitute valid matter for confecting the Sacrifice and the Eucharistic Sacrament. It is a grave abuse to introduce other substances, such as fruit or sugar or honey, into the bread for confecting the Eucharist." (Redemptionis Sacramentum 48)

Would you say that there is such an extent of grease in a tortilla that it would not commonly be considered wheat bread?

[VeniteAdoremus]

I think you want to add an "un" in your first paragraph

And I do not consider tortillas to be bread at all, but that might be a cultural thing...

When I was in the Cathedral choir, we were once hired to sing on video, which would later be edited into a Protestant television service. They had these big flat leavened breads and we had to walk past them, rip off a small piece, and then quickly go back to the end of the line so it looked like there were way more choristers (they only taped our hands).

They should have considered that we hadn't had any lunch yet.

[MithLuin]

I was assuming your dream was Latin Rite .

Yes, the inclusion of olive oil, shortening, milk, etc. in the tortilla recipe would make it invalid, as far as I can understand.

Here's a recipe:
[quote]1/4 cup whole wheat flour
3/4 cup unbleached flour
1/2 cup perrier (or any other sparkling water-NOT flavored, of course)
Mix the dry ingredients, add water & nead into "sticky" round loaf.
Form onto baking pan lined with parchment paper.
Bake in pre-heated oven at 350 degrees for ten minutes.
Remove from oven and poke holes all around with tooth pick. Turn over loaf and bake for an additional 15 minutes.
*NOTE all ovens are different and you may to subtract a minute to ensure it doesn't come out too dry (especually around ends) to eliminate crumbs.
**ALSO, it's advisable if making more than one loaf, to mix each seperately.
If you are interested in the wafer recipe, I will be happy to get that to you. Basically it's a wheaten flour/water recipe, no additives. I was told a wheaten cornflour (not actually made from corn) it's actually more of a wheat starch.[/quote]

They take this [i]only[/i] wheat and water business [u]very[/u] seriously.

Here's a couple of tortilla recipes for comparison:

[quote]3 cups unbleached flour
2 tsp. baking powder
1 tsp. salt
4-6 Tbsp. vegetable shortening or lard
about 1 1/4 cups warm water[/quote]

[quote]Texas Flour Tortillas (adapted from The Border Cookbook by Cheryl Alters Jamison and Bill Jamison)
Ingredients:
Two cups of all-purpose flour (can make them whole wheat by substituting one cup of whole-wheat flour for white flour)
1 1/2 teaspoons of baking powder
1 teaspoon of salt
2 teaspoons of vegetable oil
3/4 cups of warm milk

Method:
Mix together the flour, baking powder, salt and oil.
Slowly add the warm milk.
Stir until a loose, sticky ball is formed.
Knead for two minutes on a floured surface. Dough should be firm and soft.
Place dough in a bowl and cover with a damp cloth or plastic wrap for 20 minutes.
After the dough has rested, break off eight sections, roll them into balls in your hands, place on a plate (make sure they aren’t touching) and then cover balls with damp cloth or plastic wrap for 10 minutes. (It’s very important to let the dough rest, otherwise it will be like elastic and won’t roll out to a proper thickness and shape.)
After dough has rested, one at a time place a dough ball on a floured surface, pat it out into a four-inch circle, and then roll with a rolling pin from the center until it’s thin and about eight inches in diameter. (If you roll out pie crusts you’ll have no problem with this.) Don’t over work the dough, or it’ll be stiff. Keep rolled-out tortillas covered until ready to cook.
In a dry iron skillet or comal heated on high, cook the tortilla about thirty seconds on each side. It should start to puff a bit when it’s done.
Keep cooked tortillas covered wrapped in a napkin until ready to eat.
Can be reheated in a dry iron skillet, over your gas-burner flame or in the oven wrapped in foil.
While you probably won’t have any leftovers, you can store in the fridge tightly wrapped in foil or plastic for a day or so.
Makes eight tortillas.[/quote]

I agree that while your quote from [i]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/i] only seems to rule out, ie, potato flour, honey or other flavorings (not specifically salt or grease), you should probably be leary about considering such additives licit. Certainly the baking powder is problematic in the West.

While I haven't yet looked it up, I did come across the following claim:
"The limits for valid matter are quite clearly stated in Pope St Pius V's Bull [i]"De Defectibus"[/i] of 1572, and it states that any material other than wheat, water, salt (and yeast for the Eastern Rites) will invalidate the material."

That does seem stricter than the language of the current GIRM, so I'm not sure how to reconcile that. A brief search on the internet certainly calls attention to the sorts of recipes the GIRM is guarding [i]against[/i]. I don't know what a final opinion on tortillas would be, but they are at least suspect for use in Western rite because of the leavening agent. The other additives may be within the realm of acceptability.

[princessgianna]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1885034' date='Jun 6 2009, 04:56 PM']

I guess that's to be expected, though. Not even all the women at the extraordinary form wear head-coverings... [/quote]
It is a new thing to adjust-suddenly you have this lace on your head and every time you move your head- it falls mostly when you forget bobby pins!

Ok I am done hijacking this thread.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1885062' date='Jun 6 2009, 06:32 PM']I KNOW, ME TOO!@!!!!
I think I saw bare shoulders and nearly had a stroke.

Ok, I'm done being sarcastic. [/quote]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1885548' date='Jun 7 2009, 11:53 AM']I was assuming your dream was Latin Rite .

Yes, the inclusion of olive oil, shortening, milk, etc. in the tortilla recipe would make it invalid, as far as I can understand.

Here's a recipe:


They take this [i]only[/i] wheat and water business [u]very[/u] seriously.

Here's a couple of tortilla recipes for comparison:





I agree that while your quote from [i]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/i] only seems to rule out, ie, potato flour, honey or other flavorings (not specifically salt or grease), you should probably be leary about considering such additives licit. Certainly the baking powder is problematic in the West.

While I haven't yet looked it up, I did come across the following claim:
"The limits for valid matter are quite clearly stated in Pope St Pius V's Bull [i]"De Defectibus"[/i] of 1572, and it states that any material other than wheat, water, salt (and yeast for the Eastern Rites) will invalidate the material."

That does seem stricter than the language of the current GIRM, so I'm not sure how to reconcile that. A brief search on the internet certainly calls attention to the sorts of recipes the GIRM is guarding [i]against[/i]. I don't know what a final opinion on tortillas would be, but they are at least suspect for use in Western rite because of the leavening agent. The other additives may be within the realm of acceptability.[/quote]

Here's the quote from De Defectibus pertaining to the matter:

"1. If the bread is not made of wheat flour, or if so much
other grain is mixed with the wheat that it is no longer wheat
bread, or if it is adulterated in some other way, there is no
Sacrament.
2. If the bread has been made with rose-water or some
other distillation, the validity of the Sacrament is doubtful.
3. If the bread has begun to mold, but it is not corrupt,
or if it is not unleavened according to the custom of the Latin
Church, the Sacrament is valid but the celebrant is guilty of
grave sin.
4. If the celebrant notices before the Consecration that
the host is corrupt or that it is not made of wheat flour, he
is to replace that host with another, make the offering at
least mentally and continue from where he left off." (Pope St. Pius V, De Defectibus in Celebratione Missarum Occurentibus)

Obviously anything besides wheat and water would make the Mass illicit; however, it would only invalidate the Mass if there were so much that one wouldn't consider it wheat bread.

[johnnydigit]

holy canoles! i thought the title of this topic was an exaggeration, and the pic was kinda freaky, but after watching the video i think i may have trouble sleeping tonight!

[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TzorWGX-a9A/SCNCMCzLK5I/AAAAAAAAD6A/Xq-NvIQcit4/s1600/puppet%2Bmass.jpg[/img]


warning: don't show this to any young children!