The "timing" Of The Fall Of The Angels

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='RemnantRules' post='1889213' date='Jun 12 2009, 05:10 PM']I was going to say. I made a power point presentation for my guys small group last night. I'll probably put it on the Remnant website for people to use.

The next part for the series are the "strengths", weaknesses, and strategies of the Devil.

Now that my youth understand WHO the devil is, now I want them to know his strategies. Any good resources out there that you all know?

I got some good stuff from Fr. Hardon and St. Augustine. I've been reading some Aquinas (thanks Jennie!)

Any other sources?[/quote]


Don't forget the Screwtape Letters and the Snakebite Letters.

[AngelofMusic]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1889004' date='Jun 12 2009, 09:24 AM']H, did you really have to use Hebrew? Now Jennie's going to have to translate for me.

Where did you learn Hebrew, anyway?[/quote]

Oh darling Micah, it's the name of our bible study group!

And I loooooove me some English to Hebrew online translators

[AngelofMusic]

[quote name='AngelofMusic' post='1888821' date='Jun 11 2009, 11:04 PM']Point one.
In my understanding, the fall of the angels happened long before God created the earth, back in חושך וכאוס. Satan had already kinda set up shop and was planning in the things he could do when God was busy for all those days. Then on the seventh day, I would like to think Satan went and infiltrated the Garden, watching Adam and Eve and seeing what he could do to hurt God the most.

Point dos.
Satan was [pun so not intended] playing the devil's advocate in the court maybe. He was that little bit of sin that everyone had... and he was using it. If someone hears just one side of an argument, you never really know if they would have really made that decision. Therefore, God had Satan come to test Job. [I haven't read that part in awhile so I am a little fuzzy on the story line.][/quote]


I actually meant to put כאוס וריקנות for the Hebrew.

[StColette]

[quote name='AngelofMusic' post='1889345' date='Jun 12 2009, 09:03 PM']Oh darling Micah, it's the name of our bible study group!

And I loooooove me some English to Hebrew online translators [/quote]

lol Except that the translators gave you the wrong words to use

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='AngelofMusic' post='1890946' date='Jun 14 2009, 11:08 PM']I actually meant to put כאוס וריקנות for the Hebrew. [/quote]
Now, since you used a translator online, we also have to make sure this is [i]ancient[/i] Hebrew...

[StColette]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1891432' date='Jun 15 2009, 01:57 PM']Now, since you used a translator online, we also have to make sure this is [i]ancient[/i] Hebrew...[/quote]

It's not the Hebrew found in the Old Testament.

[FSM Sister]

This is interesting...

And I suppose that the reason the Church does not define Satan more clearly is because some cultures are quite bound up in rudimentary witchcraft and the like.

[FSM Sister]

[AngelofMusic]

[quote name='StColette' post='1891533' date='Jun 15 2009, 02:34 PM']It's not the Hebrew found in the Old Testament.[/quote]

I'M DOING THE BEST THAT I CAN!!

[StColette]

[quote name='AngelofMusic' post='1892292' date='Jun 16 2009, 12:11 AM'] I'M DOING THE BEST THAT I CAN!![/quote]

It was a good effort

If you're really interested in learning Biblical Hebrew try the following text

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Introducing-Biblical-Hebrew-Allen-Ross/dp/0801021472/ref=sr_1_26?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245174097&sr=8-26"]http://www.amazon.com/Introducing-Biblical...097&sr=8-26[/url]

It's what I used for my Hebrew class. It'll take you from beginners thru intermediate level. Used copy for $17 isn't bad.

[Guest]

So do we as cathoics believe that the fallen angels and the antichrist (satan) are literally going to come to earth at the end of time and present themselves as described in revelations ?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1893241' date='Jun 16 2009, 02:50 PM']So do we as cathoics believe that the fallen angels and the antichrist (satan) are literally going to come to earth at the end of time and present themselves as described in revelations ?[/quote]
Remember that apocalyptic literature is generally using figurative speech to get at a deeper meaning. It seems beyond debate that the world will for some time be overrun by evil and demonic activity (how extreme or how overtly I can't say), but it seems unlikely that demons will literally appear as some of the beasts and monsters recorded in the Book of Revelation.

[kafka]

the fallen angels will cooperate with Antichrist and the False Prophetess as a perverse reflection of the holy Angels cooperating with Jesus Christ and Holy Mary, though I agree with Micah that they do not literally appear as dragons, etc. However, in the End Times, the effects of the preternatural powers of the fallen angels may appear through the works of Antichrist, the False Prophetess, and their followers.


Edit: Added additional clarification of thoughts.

Edited June 16, 2009 by kafka

[Guest]

[quote name='kafka' post='1893273' date='Jun 16 2009, 03:32 PM']the fallen angels will cooperate with Antichrist and the False Prophetess as a perverse reflection of the holy Angels cooperating with Jesus Christ and Holy Mary, though I agree with Micah that they do not literally appear as dragons, etc. However, in the End Times, the effects of the preternatural powers of the fallen angels may appear through the works of Antichrist, the False Prophetess, and their followers.


Edit: Added additional clarification of thoughts.[/quote]

Cool. Thank you both.

I didn't actually think they would appear as dragons or monsters or whatever. If anything I would of assumed they would appear in human form. Also it says the antichrist will make fire come down from heaven. That will be pretty spooky when a "human" makes that happen.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1894297' date='Jun 17 2009, 11:31 AM']Cool. Thank you both.

I didn't actually think they would appear as dragons or monsters or whatever. If anything I would of assumed they would appear in human form. Also it says the antichrist will make fire come down from heaven. That will be pretty spooky when a "human" makes that happen.[/quote]
A lot of the people who read into Revelation would say that that's a reference to nuclear weapons or something similar. While that is a possible interpretation, I think we have to stay away from interpreting the Scriptures in the same way someone tries to interpret Nostradamus. Not everything necessarily has a direct correlation with a future historical incident.

[kafka]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1894297' date='Jun 17 2009, 11:31 AM']Cool. Thank you both.

I didn't actually think they would appear as dragons or monsters or whatever. If anything I would of assumed they would appear in human form. Also it says the antichrist will make fire come down from heaven. That will be pretty spooky when a "human" makes that happen.[/quote]
I dont recall the prediction in Scripture of Antichrist making fire come down from Heaven. What verse of Revelation are you referring too?

Generally, Antichrist will not work false signs and wonders. He will rise to power through military victories and eventual military might, as well as deceptions and betrayals.

Edited June 17, 2009 by kafka

[Guest]

[quote name='kafka' post='1894310' date='Jun 17 2009, 11:02 AM']I dont recall the prediction in Scripture of Antichrist making fire come down from Heaven. What verse of Revelation are you referring too?

Generally, Antichrist will not work false signs and wonders. He will rise to power through military victories and eventual military might, as well as deceptions and betrayals.[/quote]

Sup Kafka Godbless man.

The verse is Revelation 13 : 12

[i]The second beast It wielded all the authority of the first beast in it's sight and made the earth and it's inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed. It performed great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in the sight of everyone. It decieved the inhabitants of the earth with signs it was allowed to perform in sight of the first beast[/i],

[kafka]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1894325' date='Jun 17 2009, 12:25 PM']Sup Kafka Godbless man.

The verse is Revelation 13 : 12

[i]The second beast It wielded all the authority of the first beast in it's sight and made the earth and it's inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed. It performed great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in the sight of everyone. It decieved the inhabitants of the earth with signs it was allowed to perform in sight of the first beast[/i],[/quote]
God bless D-boy.

I see, thank you for citing that. My opinion is that this refers to the False Prophetess, who will be a perverse religious leader, perhaps even an anti-pope. She is the one who will work the false signs and wonders, even making fire come down from 'the heavens' not literally Heaven.

Notice this sequence is referring to 'two beasts.' The first beast is Antichrist, the second beast is the False Prophetess. She works together with Antichrist. Her signs and wonders lead people to worship Antichrist as a god.

Also notice that Antichrist (the first beast) is healed of a mortal wound, I believe from a battle. This will be accomplished with the help of fallen angels, and he will stage it as if it were a miracle and he has power over his own life (a false resurrection), hence leading people to worship him as a god.

Edited June 17, 2009 by kafka

[Guest]

[quote name='kafka' post='1894336' date='Jun 17 2009, 11:34 AM']God bless D-boy.

I see, thank you for citing that. My opinion is that this refers to the False Prophetess, who will be a perverse religious leader, perhaps even an anti-pope. She is the one who will work the false signs and wonders, even making fire come down from 'the heavens' not literally Heaven.

Notice this sequence is referring to 'two beasts.' The first beast is Antichrist, the second beast is the False Prophetess. She works together with Antichrist. Her signs and wonders lead people to worship Antichrist as a god.

Also notice that Antichrist (the first beast) is healed of a mortal wound, I believe from a battle. This will be accomplished with the help of fallen angels, and he will stage it as if it were a miracle and he has power over his own life (a false resurrection), hence leading people to worship him as a god.[/quote]


That's crazy stuff. If the false prophetess were to be an anti pope how would that work out ? How would faithfull catholics know what was going on ? Will the antichrist be from the muslim church/government you think ?

[StColette]

I believe it should be pointed out that the Antichrist is not Satan. Satan (represented in Revelation as the dragon) gives his power to the Antichrist. According to the Haydock Commentary and the Navarre Bible commentary. The Antichrist is the first beast and Satan (the dragon) is the one who gives him power (http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id299.html). The Second Beast and the First are not the same, the First in commentaries is recognized as the Antichrist and the Second Beast is, I guess you could call him the Antichrist's aide (Prophet). The Second Beast acts with the authority of the Antichrist and brings people to believe and worship the Antichrist, but the First and Second Beast are not the same. So it's incorrect to say that the Second Beast is the Antichrist, when in fact commentaries recognize the First Beast as the Antichrist.