Freedom Of Speech

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1888567' date='Jun 11 2009, 06:25 PM']We need to interpret [i]Dignitatis Humanae[/i] in light of the teachings of previous Popes and Councils, not in a vacuum.[/quote]

And the previous popes and councils believe we need Catholic states that deny freedom of speech to non-Catholics?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1888611' date='Jun 11 2009, 07:17 PM']And the previous popes and councils believe we need Catholic states that deny freedom of speech to non-Catholics?[/quote]

Here's what Leo XIII said about freedom of speech and freedom of the press:

"We must now consider briefly liberty of speech, and liberty of the press. It is hardly necessary to say that there can be no such right as this, if it be not used in moderation, and if it pass beyond the bounds and end of all true liberty. For right is a moral power which -- as We have before said and must again and again repeat -- it is absurd to suppose that nature has accorded indifferently to truth and falsehood, to justice and injustice. Men have a right freely and prudently to propagate throughout the State what things soever are true and honorable, so that as many as possible may possess them; but Iying opinions, than which no mental plague is greater, and vices which corrupt the heart and moral life should be diligently repressed by public authority, lest they insidiously work the ruin of the State. The excesses of an unbridled intellect, which unfailingly end in the oppression of the untutored multitude, are no less rightly controlled by the authority of the law than are the injuries inflicted by violence upon the weak. And this all the more surely, because by far the greater part of the community is either absolutely unable, or able only with great difficulty, to escape from illusions and deceitful subtleties, especially such as flatter the passions. If unbridled license of speech and of writing be granted to all, nothing will remain sacred and inviolate; even the highest and truest mandates of natures, justly held to be the common and noblest heritage of the human race, will not be spared. Thus, truth being gradually obscured by darkness, pernicious and manifold error, as too often happens, will easily prevail. Thus, too, license will gain what liberty loses; for liberty will ever be more free and secure in proportion as license is kept in fuller restraint. In regard, however, to all matter of opinion which God leaves to man's free discussion, full liberty of thought and of speech is naturally within the right of everyone; for such liberty never leads men to suppress the truth, but often to discover it and make it known." (Pope Leo XIII, [i]Libertas praestantissimum[/i] 23)

N.B. [i]Dignitatis Humanae[/i] says that "[This Vatican Council] leaves untouched traditional Catholic doctrine on the moral duty of men and societies toward the true religion and toward the one Church of Christ." (Second Ecumenical Vatican Council, [i]Dignitatis Humanae[/i] 1)

Edited June 12, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1888572' date='Jun 11 2009, 05:43 PM']I am only a Statist if by that term you mean that I believe that all governing authority comes from God.

I am only a Theocrat if by that term you mean that I believe that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship[/quote]

So what you are describing is... "Totalitarian Catholicism"?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1888723' date='Jun 11 2009, 10:02 PM']So what you are describing is... "Totalitarian Catholicism"?[/quote]



Only if you call the Magisterium of the Church totalitarian.

The Catechism says:

"The authority required by the moral order derives from God: 'Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.'" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1899)

Bl. Pius IX condemned the following proposition in the [i]Syllabus of Errors[/i]:

"In this age of ours it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be the only religion of the state, to the exclusion of all other cults whatsoever." (Denzinger-Schonmezter 2977)

Edited June 12, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Hassan]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1888424' date='Jun 11 2009, 10:25 AM']The Dark Ages and Middle Ages were wonderful times. Those were the ages when Christendom was at its height.[/quote]



ughhhhhhh......

[Resurrexi]

I'm honestly surprised at how many here don't think that the Middle Ages were great times. I would say that the Middle Ages were the best period in the history of the world after the thirty-three years during which Christ was visibly among us, the years of our Lady's earthly life, the apostolic age, and of course the time when our first parents lived in original justice.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Kitty]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1888890' date='Jun 12 2009, 01:10 AM']I'm honestly surprised at how many here don't think that the Middle Ages were great times. I would say that the Middle Ages were the best period in the history of the world after the thirty-three years during which Christ was visibly among us, the years of our Lady's earthly life, the apostolic age, and of course the time when our first parents lived in original justice.[/quote]
[img]http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t978/T978459A.jpg[/img]

Oh yeah. The middle ages were awesome.
Yay torture!

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1888903' date='Jun 12 2009, 02:52 AM'][img]http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t978/T978459A.jpg[/img]

Oh yeah. The middle ages were awesome.
Yay torture![/quote]

There is still torture today...

But do you know what we don't have today? We don't have a large number of powerful states which recognize Catholicism as their official religion; nor do we have a culture that is overwhelmingly Catholic; nor do we have hordes of vocations.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Kitty]

So?

[Resurrexi]

Living in a secular humanist not to mention pornographic culture certainly doesn't make practicing Catholicism any easier.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1888639' date='Jun 11 2009, 09:12 PM']Here's what Leo XIII said about freedom of speech and freedom of the press:

"...Men have a right freely and prudently to propagate throughout the State what things soever are true and honorable, so that as many as possible may possess them; but Iying opinions, than which no mental plague is greater, and vices which corrupt the heart and moral life should be diligently repressed by public authority, lest they insidiously work the ruin of the State..."[/quote]

Obviously it would require a Catholic State to recognize this... I don't happen to find that to be a realistic option in today's society, and I'm not so sure I'd want it anyway. Even if the Middle Ages were much better than we have the impression of believing, every period in history has its vices. I recall reading something just a few weeks ago about prostitution in medieval Italy... how it was practically an institution of society.

I'd rather look forward to heaven.

Edited June 12, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[hoosieranna]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1888984' date='Jun 12 2009, 09:49 AM']Obviously it would require a Catholic State to recognize this... I don't happen to find that to be a realistic option in today's society, and I'm not so sure I'd want it anyway. Even [b]if the Middle Ages were much better than we have the impression of believing[/b], every period in history has its vices. I recall reading something just a few weeks ago about prostitution in medieval Italy... how it was practically an institution of society.

I'd rather look forward to heaven.[/quote]

It's a pet cause of the boy. The Middle Ages appear more on the Lame Board than you might think. I personally am happier not being treated as chattel whose sole reason for existence is making children.

Good post.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1888572' date='Jun 11 2009, 05:43 PM']I am only a Statist if by that term you mean that I believe that all governing authority comes from God.

I am only a Theocrat if by that term you mean that I believe that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship[/quote]

Seeing as you suggest that a Theocratic State would be desirable as long as it is a Catholic one, you are a sounding like a Theocrat and a Statist.

It's for the best that the papal states are gone. Divine Right caused more problems, and solved few other than to pacify some of the subjects; and the middle-ages saw some of the worst offences ever.

You are romanticising a dark era.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Lounge Daddy

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1888907' date='Jun 12 2009, 03:22 AM']There is still torture today...[/quote]

Ya, we have torture practised in the name of the State, instead of in the name of God. The worst evils are the ones commited in the name of God.


[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1888907' date='Jun 12 2009, 03:22 AM']But do you know what we don't have today? We don't have a large number of powerful states which recognize Catholicism as their official religion ...[/quote]

In other words, we don't have entire populations being coerced into practising Catholicism under threat of law? This is a good thing, Res!

God trusts us with the liberty to choose freely. We need to imitate Him, and trust our brothers and sisters with that same liberty.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Lounge Daddy

[KnightofChrist]

The Middle Ages and Dark Ages where not as bad as everyone here is making them out. It is true that in many ways the Catholic Church was better then, and in many way the Church is more weak now. People problems with the Middle Ages or Dark Ages seems to be based on the over simplistic elementary school understanding of those times.

Women in this age are vastly more objectified than in those times. Greater and more numerous evils have been committed in our age than in that time. Communist Russian alone murdered vast amounts of more people than where murdered in the name of God by all the states of that time. There are now a uncountable amount of Heresies many more than in that age.

And frankly I am amazed how quickly Catholics here will attack a fellow Catholic, Rex, using there same failed understanding of the middle/dark ages that anti-Catholics use to attack the Church.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Nadezhda' post='1888990' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:04 AM']It's a pet cause of the boy. The Middle Ages appear more on the Lame Board than you might think. I personally am happier not being treated as chattel whose sole reason for existence is making children.

Good post.[/quote]

Well, I'm sure like everything, our perception is affected by many factors that are never discussed in a middle school history class. I certainly see a level of attractivness to living in a both nominally and spiritually Catholic nation, but I also know that in our fallen nature, there would be abuses that are currently not problems in our democratic and tolerant society. If I could pick any political rule under which to live, I'd choose a saintly Catholic monarch; but the worst rule to live under would be the evil totalitarian who takes the throne by force. Am I willing to trade the ideal political rule to avoid the worst? Most definitely. And most of Western society apparently feels the same.

Number one rule of economics: there is [i]always[/i] a trade off. And each society decide -- as a society -- what price they're willing to pay for whatever benefits they might gain for their freedoms and lifestyle.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1888984' date='Jun 12 2009, 09:49 AM']Obviously it would require a Catholic State to recognize this... I don't happen to find that to be a realistic option in today's society, and I'm not so sure I'd want it anyway. Even if the Middle Ages were much better than we have the impression of believing, every period in history has its vices. I recall reading something just a few weeks ago about prostitution in medieval Italy... how it was practically an institution of society.

I'd rather look forward to heaven.[/quote]

According to the teachings of the Church, a government which holds the Catholic religion as the sole religion of the State would be the ideal. This would probably not be attainable in the United States today, but it would be if Catholics ever made up most of the United States population.

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1889045' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:29 AM']It's for the best that the papal states are gone. Divine Right caused more problems, and solved few other than to pacify some of the subjects; and the middle-ages saw some of the worst offences ever.[/quote]

Bl. Pius IX condemned the following preposition:
"The abolition of the civil power which the Apostolic See possesses, would be extremely conducive to the liberty and prosperity of the Church" (Denzinger-Schonmezter 2976)
Obviously, the Papal states still do exist in the form of the Vatican City-State. Surely you don't think that the Vatican should be taken from the Pope, too?

[i]Divine right of civil rulers[/i] is actually a Catholic doctrine if by that term it is meant that the authority required by the moral order derives from God. Christ Himself said to Pilate: "Thou shouldst not have any power against me, unless it were given thee from above." (John 19:11)

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1889048' date='Jun 12 2009, 11:36 AM']In other words, we don't have entire populations being coerced into practising Catholicism under threat of law? This is a good thing, Res![/quote]

When did I ever state that the State should coerce the people into practicing Catholicism? To say that would be contrary to the teachings of the Magisterium:

"It is therefore completely in accord with the nature of faith that in matters religious every manner of coercion on the part of men should be excluded." (Second Ecumenical Vatican Council,[i] Dignitatis Humanae[/i] 10)

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1889154' date='Jun 12 2009, 03:06 PM']When did I ever state that the State should coerce the people into practicing Catholicism?[/quote]

Because that is what a state religion is; making it law to practice one faith and illegal to practice any other.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1889085' date='Jun 12 2009, 12:36 PM']The Middle Ages and Dark Ages where not as bad as everyone here is making them out. It is true that in many ways the Catholic Church was better then, and in many way the Church is more weak now.[/quote]

Ok. In many other ways the Church is better now, and was more weak then. People like Saint Francis were needed for a real reason then--to trigger some much needed reforms. Also, Luther's grievances were legitimate (although his actions of forming his own church were not). Goodness, some of our worst popes were during that era.

To romanticise that time and say it was perfect and we should go backwards in time is foolish. And to criticise that time isn't saying that everything is perfect today.

We are far better off keeping the realm of politics separate from the realm of religion. I have a real problem with the suggestion that church and state should be united, which is what Res seems to be suggesting. It is no accident that the areas of the world with the most problems are the same areas that haven't figured this out yet.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Lounge Daddy

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1889169' date='Jun 12 2009, 03:57 PM']Because that is what a state religion is; making it law to practice one faith and illegal to practice any other.[/quote]



You should probably let the Republic of Malta know that!


[quote name='The Constitution of Malta']Section 2 [State Religion]

(1) The religion of Malta is the Roman Catholic Apostolic Religion.[/quote]

[quote name='The Constitution of Malta']Section 40 [Religion, Belief]

(1) All persons in Malta shall have full freedom of conscience and enjoy the free exercise of their respective mode of religious worship.[/quote]

Edited June 12, 2009 by Resurrexi