Melkites

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1891746' date='Jun 15 2009, 03:44 PM']Many of the dogmas and doctrines of the universal Church use scholastic terminology.[/quote]
Once again we are at an impasse, because I reject the false idea that Scholastic terminology, which is utterly foreign to my Church's tradition, is somehow normative for the whole Church.

[Resurrexi]

I reject the heretical real distinction Palamas made between the God's Essence and Attributes.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1891760' date='Jun 15 2009, 03:52 PM']I reject the heretical real distinction Palamas made between the God's Essence and Attributes.[/quote]

[Patrick]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1891755' date='Jun 15 2009, 03:49 PM']Once again we are at an impasse, because I reject the false idea that Scholastic terminology, which is utterly foreign to my Church's tradition, is somehow normative for the whole Church.[/quote]

And yet you both are in communion with each other. Fascinating. Not casting judgment. It just surprises me how long this arrangement has been able to exist.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1891777' date='Jun 15 2009, 03:59 PM']And yet you both are in communion with each other. Fascinating. Not casting judgment. It just surprises me how long this arrangement has been able to exist.[/quote]
Well, our bishops are in communion with each other, and by extension we are in communion with each other, but Resurrexi and I clearly see things quite differently, but there are rare occasions when we agree.

[pat22]

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Edited June 15, 2009 by pat22

[Patrick]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1891788' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:06 PM']Well, our bishops are in communion with each other, and by extension we are in communion with each other, but Resurrexi and I clearly see things quite differently, but there are rare occasions when we agree.

[/quote]

I'm used to unity meaning a unified mindset. For example, when I see that someone is Orthodox, I've about now taken for granted that I'll be thinking about things in about the same way.

Apotheoun, I'm curious, from your experience as a Melkite on these boards, do all or most Latin Catholics argue similarly as does Ressurexi? Or would you say he's exceptional? I'm trying to figure out how much of this back-and-forth is just you and him, and how much is Melkite-and-Latin.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1891824' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:20 PM']I'm used to unity meaning a unified mindset. For example, when I see that someone is Orthodox, I've about now taken for granted that I'll be thinking about things in about the same way.

Apotheoun, I'm curious, from your experience as a Melkite on these boards, do all or most Latin Catholics argue similarly as does Ressurexi? Or would you say he's exceptional? I'm trying to figure out how much of this back-and-forth is just you and him, and how much is Melkite-and-Latin.[/quote]
Here at Phatmass it is mainly just me and Resurrexi, with an occasional interjection from a few others.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1891693' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:17 PM']Scholastic metaphysics posits the idea that by reason alone a man can come to know something about the divine essence, but this idea is universally rejected by the Eastern Fathers, because created reason cannot transcend itself, and to say that it can is quasi-Pelagian.[/quote]
Suppose a man were born and raised on an island, away from any human contact. Do you believe that by reason he can learn anything about God (e.g., that there is a God)?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1891850' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:37 PM']Suppose a man were born and raised on an island, away from any human contact. Do you believe that by reason he can learn anything about God (e.g., that there is a God)?[/quote]
If you are a Pelagian you would say that his efforts to know God according to his created intellect would save him, but if you are a Catholic you would say that salvation is not about rationalizing a belief about a supreme being, but is about the unmerited gift of grace, which only God can give.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1891852' date='Jun 15 2009, 05:38 PM']If you are a Pelagian you would say that his efforts to know God according to his created intellect would save him, but if you are a Catholic you would say that salvation is not about rationalizing a belief about a supreme being, but is about the unmerited gift of grace, which only God can give.[/quote]
So is it accurate to say that you believe that the man on the island can learn something about God, but that anything he learns is a supernatural revelation given by grace, and not learned by reason?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1891850' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:37 PM']Suppose a man were born and raised on an island, away from any human contact. Do you believe that by reason he can learn anything about God (e.g., that there is a God)?[/quote]
Let me clarify something, because some Latin Catholics are reading my comments about the inability of man to know anything about the divine essence as meaning that man can know nothing at all about God, which I have never said. What is knowable about God are His energies, not His essence, i.e., what the Fathers called "the things around" God which manifest His presence, and which allow man to participate in His being. To put it another way, God is more than essence, He is also energy and a triad of divine persons.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1891855' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:41 PM']So is it accurate to say that you believe that the man on the island can learn something about God, but that anything he learns is a supernatural revelation given by grace, and not learned by reason?[/quote]
No, what he learns by created reason is not equatable with supernatural revelation. In fact, what he can learn about God through created reason would be an imperfect reflection of His energies, which sustain creation, but that knowledge taken alone is not salvific, because salvation is by grace alone, and not by the acts of created human intellection.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1891859' date='Jun 15 2009, 06:46 PM']No, what he learns by created reason is not equatable with supernatural revelation. In fact, what he can learn about God through created reason would be an imperfect reflection of His energies, which sustain creation, but that knowledge taken alone is not salvific, because salvation is by grace alone, and not by the acts of created human intellection.[/quote]
I guess what I'm asking is, do you believe that there is any role for reason?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1891861' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:48 PM']I guess what I'm asking is, do you believe that there is a role for reason?[/quote]
Yes, its role -- according to the Eastern Fathers -- is to cease activity, because it is only when one has moved beyond what is intelligible to the created mind that he can grasp God by faith.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1891864' date='Jun 15 2009, 06:52 PM']Yes, its role -- according to the Eastern Fathers -- is to cease activity, because it is only when one has moved beyond what is intelligible to the created mind that he can grasp God by faith.[/quote]
But what about grasping what is human? Do you believe there is a role for reason in that? I think you have said before that you reject philosophy. But much of philosophy deals with human matters (e.g., how we think).

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1891870' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:57 PM']But what about grasping what is human? Do you believe there is a role for reason in that? I think you have said before that you reject philosophy. But much of philosophy deals with human matters (e.g., how we think).[/quote]
Created reason is designed to investigate and learn things about creation, but it cannot transcend the gap between the uncreated and the created, for that can only be unidirectionally transgressed by God through His energies.

I do not reject philosophy in general, but only when it is applied to God. If you want to understand where I am coming from better you should read the opening sections of St. Gregory of Nyssa's treatise "The Life of Moses" in which he speaks about the proper uses of Greek philosophy, and the very limited nature of those proper uses.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1891879' date='Jun 15 2009, 07:03 PM']If you want to understand where I am coming from better you should read the opening sections of St. Gregory of Nyssa's treatise "The Life of Moses" in which he speaks about the proper uses of Greek philosophy, and the very limited nature of those proper uses.[/quote]
Thanks, I will.

[Oik]

[quote]it is only when one has moved beyond what is intelligible to the created mind that he can grasp God by faith.[/quote]

...and you were surprised when a certain eager young Roman Catholic asked you to be his mentor...

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1891777' date='Jun 15 2009, 04:59 PM']And yet you both are in communion with each other. Fascinating. Not casting judgment. It just surprises me how long this arrangement has been able to exist.[/quote]
I think we're like the family where the in-laws hate each other.