Another Reason We Should Convert The Orthodox

[LouisvilleFan]

Dude, Orthodox priests receive their faculties from their own bishops.

Why are you so worried about this anyway?

[Resurrexi]

The real question is whence do the Eastern Orthodox bishops receive their faculties.

I know that under the 1917 Code, absolution by Eastern Orthodox priests was invalid, but for some reason it can be valid under the new codes.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Resurrexi

[OraProMe]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1895893' date='Jun 19 2009, 08:32 AM']Dude, Orthodox priests receive their faculties from their own bishops.

Why are you so worried about this anyway?[/quote]

Eastern Orthodox bishops aren't in communion with the pope and thus don't have any jurisdiction or authority to grant faculties. There aren't two systems of authority, one for the East and one for the West. There is only Peter.

I'm not particularly, it was just a thought that occured to me while reading over another thread.

[Gregorius]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1895811' date='Jun 19 2009, 02:21 AM']Exactly. The Church is hierarchial and all authority flows down from Peter, to the bishops and then to the priests who are granted faculties.

The canon law I quoted above specifically says that for a confession to be VALID not just licit the priest must have faculties. Faculties, that the same code says, can only be granted by a local ordinary.

If you don't have a mandate from the pope to teach and sanctify (like both the Orthodox and SSPX) then you don't have jurisdiction, and if you don't have jurisdiction you don't have faculties.

Now in cases of extreme emergency "ecclesia supplet". The Church supplies.
Say if I was hit by a bus outside an Orthodox or SSPX Church, then the priest inside could validly hear my confession. This is very different to if I went in and waited at the confessional.

Being validly ordained isn't enough for the absolution of sins, the canons I quoted a few posts above state this explicitly.[/quote]
So wait, I'm lost. If the faculty for valid confession comes from the Ordinary, why do you need a mandate from the Pope if the ordinary has proper authority?
As to my understanding, the patriarchs have full authority over their sees. However if there is a conflict between them and the Pope, the Pope wins out. But there seems to be no doctrinal dispute here. Can you clarify?

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Gregorius' post='1895919' date='Jun 19 2009, 10:15 AM']So wait, I'm lost. If the faculty for valid confession comes from the Ordinary, why do you need a mandate from the Pope if the ordinary has proper authority?[/quote]

Because one becomes an ordinary by receiving an appointment from the Pope. An official mandate which gives you the power to teach and sanctify, without which the bishop has sacramental power but no authority to rule over the faithful.

[i]As to my understanding, the patriarchs have full authority over their sees. However if there is a conflict between them and the Pope, the Pope wins out. But there seems to be no doctrinal dispute here. Can you clarify?[/i]
All local Churches, whether headed by a bishop or patriarch, are subject to the Roman Pontiff. But that's another discussion that we shouldn't get into here......

It's not about "doctrinal dispute" it's the about the fact that confession is both judicial and sacramental. Which is why being a validly ordained priest doesn't suffice for the validity of the sacrament.

[Gregorius]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1895920' date='Jun 19 2009, 09:20 AM']Because one becomes an ordinary by receiving an appointment from the Pope. An official mandate which gives you the power to teach and sanctify, without which the bishop has sacramental power but no authority to rule over the faithful.

All local Churches, whether headed by a bishop or patriarch, are subject to the Roman Pontiff. But that's another discussion that we shouldn't get into here......

It's not about "doctrinal dispute" it's the about the fact that confession is both judicial and sacramental. Which is why being a validly ordained priest doesn't suffice for the validity of the sacrament.[/quote]
I'm not disputing that faculty given by an authority is needed. I'm just saying the Orthodox patriarchs DO have an authority. I agree that the Pope trumps all others. But I'm saying where the Pope does not make a judgment the Patriarchs are free to act. At least that's how I understand how the church had been running for the first Millennium.
And valid sacrament or not, I agree that re-uniting East and West is a big priority especially since that goal seems realizable here in our day.

[Patrick]

[quote name='Gregorius' post='1895925' date='Jun 19 2009, 08:33 AM']And valid sacrament or not, I agree that re-uniting East and West is a big priority especially since that goal seems realizable here in our day.[/quote]

According to the Catholics.

[quote]We confirm not with unexpected astonishment, but neither with indifference, that indeed the divergence between us continually increases and the end point to which our courses are taking us, foreseeably, is indeed different. (Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholemeos, 1997, in a speech to Roman Catholic clergy and scholars at Georgetown University)[/quote]

[Patrick]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1895802' date='Jun 19 2009, 12:52 AM']It's not entertainment I'm looking for... perhaps something of spiritual value... for a change. There's actually a thread on silence and solitude that would be good if people here were interested in spirituality. Of course, since we seem more interested in splitting hairs over endless theological arguments that begin on the silliest premises (like this thread), we end up with five pages debating something that is an established fact while all of four posts linger on threads that are actually worthwhile and useful in our sanctification.[/quote]

Searching out the truth and debunking error, I would say, is as important as the spirit in which it is done. Indeed, Christ Himself said the ideal to the Samaritan woman: to worship in spirit and in truth.

I'm all for your suggestion -- deepening our spirituality. But it also must not be done in self-delusion.

[Patrick]

Also, Orthodox of course believe their own Sacraments, including Confession (with absolution), to be valid. If Catholics believe otherwise, then that too is another thing in the way of coming back into communion with each other.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='OraProMe' post='1895914' date='Jun 19 2009, 11:06 AM']Eastern Orthodox bishops aren't in communion with the pope and thus don't have any jurisdiction or authority to grant faculties. There aren't two systems of authority, one for the East and one for the West. There is only Peter.

I'm not particularly, it was just a thought that occured to me while reading over another thread.[/quote]

A thought occurs to you, so instead of posing a question like, "Does the Catholic Church believe Orthodox priests receive the faculty to forgive sins through their bishops?," you give yourself the benefit of the doubt because you've apparently made up your mind before gaining any clarification on the matter.

I don't know the official answer, but I expect that Orthodox priests and bishops receive their faculties through succession from the Eastern patriarchs (Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, etc.). This succession is what schismatics like the SSPX lack, because they don't have a patriarch other than the Bishop of Rome from whom they can receive the faculty to absolve sins, and since they aren't in union with said Bishop of Rome, the SSPX is SOL. But the Orthodox are in union with their patriarchs and their succession is unbroken and valid, so they share in the benefits that come with valid succession. I suspect the faculty to forgive sins is counted among those benefits.

Edited June 19, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Patrick' post='1895975' date='Jun 19 2009, 01:47 PM']Searching out the truth and debunking error, I would say, is as important as the spirit in which it is done. Indeed, Christ Himself said the ideal to the Samaritan woman: to worship in spirit and in truth.[/quote]

Those who are seeking truth ask questions. Ora didn't ask any questions. He simply stated that the Orthodox don't have valid Confession. That's a statement implying he's reached the conclusion without any seeking involved.

Granted, I think it's an interesting topic, but I don't think the answer should require five pages of discussion. The question we should answer is, where does the authority to forgive sins orginate? The answer to that question tells us why any church's Confession is valid or invalid. To me, the fact that a simple question like this can't be settled by now only shows that nobody here is speaking from authority.

[quote name='Patrick' post='1895975' date='Jun 19 2009, 01:47 PM']I'm all for your suggestion -- deepening our spirituality. But it also must not be done in self-delusion.[/quote]

Yeah, I think most people claim to be all for this, but in practice the evidence seems lacking.

Edited June 19, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Patrick]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1895989' date='Jun 19 2009, 11:21 AM']Those who are seeking truth ask questions. Ora didn't ask any questions. He simply stated that the Orthodox don't have valid Confession. That's a statement implying he's reached the conclusion without any seeking involved.

Granted, I think it's an interesting topic, but I don't think the answer should require five pages of discussion. The question we should answer is, where does the authority to forgive sins orginate? The answer to that question tells us why any church's Confession is valid or invalid. To me, the fact that a simple question like this can't be settled by now only shows that nobody here is speaking from authority.

Yeah, I think most people claim to be all for this, but in practice the evidence seems lacking.[/quote]

Yeah, I might agree with that.

I was just commenting against the notion that spirituality without grounding in truth is the goal. Though, come to think of it, I'm not sure that poster would have put it that strongly. I should sit on my hands before typing a response. I can be pretty reactionary. :-)

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1895989' date='Jun 19 2009, 01:21 PM']The question we should answer is, where does the authority to forgive sins orginate?[/quote]

From Christ, to the Apostles.

The problem is people arguing over who is the Church now due to Schism and "heresy" hence the argument.

I am Orthodox. I believe Roman Catholic Priests have Apostolic Succession and Apostolic Authority to their jurisdiction. I also believe Oriental and Coptic have Apostolic Succession and Apostolic Authority to their jurisdiction.

Even though Roman Catholics, Coptic Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox are not in communion with Eastern Orthodoxy I cannot claim their sacraments are invalid. I can read off a ton of decrees from all sides, written out of anger from a certain time in history which may or may not have been overblown and /or meant for a time when we were at each others throats. The fact is we all need to let go of what was, find common ground, find a solution to issues which hold us back from union and work on these issues.

My issues are:
[i]Primus Inter Pares[/i] is definitely misinterpreted.
The second edition [i]Tome of Leo[/i] was supposed to fix bad misrepresentations yet is ignored.
[i]The Filioque clause[/i], as I know both sides and really do not care to be honest, needs to be remedied regardless of what I think.
Stop comparing the Orthodox Church to Protestants- they are your problem. You are our problem since you broke from us, not vice~versa.

[Saint Therese]

I don't think you can validly compare the Orthodox with protestants.
Orthodox have valid sacraments, including the Eucharist. We might accomplish more if we tried to learn from each other instead of trying to convert each other.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1897054' date='Jun 20 2009, 11:12 PM']We might accomplish more if we tried to learn from each other instead of trying to convert each other.[/quote]



But we want EVERYONE to become Catholic.

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1897057' date='Jun 20 2009, 11:12 PM']

But we want EVERYONE to become Catholic.[/quote]

I would love everyone to become Orthodox. Do you want to duel and kill each other over this? Or do you think dialogue would be better and we can come to an agreement for reunification?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Vasilius Konstantinos' post='1897132' date='Jun 21 2009, 12:52 AM']I would love everyone to become Orthodox. Do you want to duel and kill each other over this? Or do you think dialogue would be better and we can come to an agreement for reunification?[/quote]

I like to do the St. Dominic and debate with non-Catholics.

[Apotheoun]

I want everyone to become an Orthodox Catholic.

[picchick]

[quote name='Vasilius Konstantinos' post='1897132' date='Jun 21 2009, 12:52 AM']I would love everyone to become Orthodox. Do you want to duel and kill each other over this? Or do you think dialogue would be better and we can come to an agreement for reunification?[/quote]

I vote duel.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1897296' date='Jun 21 2009, 04:15 AM']I want everyone to become an Orthodox Catholic.

[/quote]

I want everyone to be an [b]o[/b]rthodox Catholic.