Heresy

[heavenseeker]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1898352' date='Jun 22 2009, 03:47 AM']Are you saying that you disagree with the Magisterium?[/quote]
if the Magisterium is saying that it was right to burn people then yes... how do we know that those that got burned actually "deserved" it? plus such acts would be frowned on now, so why should it have been ok then

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1898356' date='Jun 22 2009, 03:55 AM']if the Magisterium is saying that it was right to burn people then yes... how do we know that those that got burned actually "deserved" it? plus such acts would be frowned on now, so why should it have been ok then[/quote]

As you can see in the poll the Pope condemned "That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit" as "in opposition to Catholic truth." (cf. Pope Leo X, [i]Exsurge Domine[/i])

When heretics were executed in the past, they had professed heresy in public (e.g. had written a heretical book, been notorious for heretical sermons), so determining that someone was guilty wasn't terribly difficult.

The reason why executing someone for heresy wouldn't be beneficial now is because, not only do we have a jail system actually capable of containing criminals, but executing heretics wouldn't stop the spread of heresy now. In fact, for the execution of heretics to be beneficial to society at all, almost everyone must be Catholic.

[heavenseeker]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1898358' date='Jun 22 2009, 04:01 AM']As you can see in the poll the Pope condemned "That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit" as "in opposition to Catholic truth." (cf. Pope Leo X, [i]Exsurge Domine[/i])

When heretics were executed in the past, they had professed heresy in public (e.g. had written a heretical book, been notorious for heretical sermons), so determining that someone was guilty wasn't terribly difficult.

The reason why executing someone for heresy wouldn't be beneficial now is because, not only do we have a jail system actually capable of containing criminals, but executing heretics wouldn't stop the spread of heresy now. In fact, for the execution of heretics to be beneficial to society at all, almost everyone must be Catholic.[/quote]
so you got upset and asked me if i disagreed for nothing? what a waist of my time, the act its self was condemned by the Pope

[Resurrexi]

Leo X was not in principle opposed to burning at the stake. Pope Leo said that the thesis of Martin Luther which states that it is against God's will for heretics to be executed is erroneous.

In short, Leo X condemned the proposition that executing heretics is always immoral.

I don't know how you can have "a [i]waist [/i]of your time." Do you have a watch that you wear like a belt rather than on your wrist? Edited June 22, 2009 by Resurrexi

[heavenseeker]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1898361' date='Jun 22 2009, 04:12 AM']

Leo X was not in principle opposed to burning at the stake. Pope Leo said that the thesis of Martin Luther which states that it is against God's will for heretics to be executed is erroneous.


I don't know how you can have "a [i]waist [/i]of your time." Do you have a watch that you wear like a belt rather than on your wrist?[/quote]
your quotes are miss leading. if it was luther that said it then luther was right about something burning at the stake is wrong


and dont start getting all smart ass with me because i said waist

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1898365' date='Jun 22 2009, 04:19 AM']your quotes are miss leading. if it was luther that said it then luther was right about something burning at the stake is wrong[/quote]

My quotes are not at all misleading. After Luther's [i]Ninety-Five Theses[/i] was published, Pope Leo X, condemned forty-one of those theses in the bull [url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm"][i]Exsurge Domine[/i][/url].

The Pope listed the 41 erroneous theses. (Among the condemned theses was the thesis "That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.") At the end of the list the Holy Father wrote wrote, "With the advice and consent of these our venerable brothers, with mature deliberation on each and every one of the above theses, and by the authority of almighty God, the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we condemn, reprobate, and reject completely each of these theses or errors as either heretical, scandalous, false, offensive to pious ears or seductive of simple minds, and against Catholic truth. By listing them, we decree and declare that all the faithful of both sexes must regard them as condemned, reprobated, and rejected."

Edited June 22, 2009 by Resurrexi

[heavenseeker]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1898367' date='Jun 22 2009, 04:27 AM']My quotes are not at all misleading. After Luther's [i]Ninety-Five Theses[/i] was published, Pope Leo X, condemned forty-one of those theses in the bull [url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm"][i]Exsurge Domine[/i][/url].

The Pope listed the 41 erroneous theses. (Among the condemned theses was the thesis "That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.") At the end of the list the Holy Father wrote wrote, "With the advice and consent of these our venerable brothers, with mature deliberation on each and every one of the above theses, and by the authority of almighty God, the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we condemn, reprobate, and reject completely each of these theses or errors as either heretical, scandalous, false, offensive to pious ears or seductive of simple minds, and against Catholic truth. By listing them, we decree and declare that all the faithful of both sexes must regard them as condemned, reprobated, and rejected."[/quote]
yes i knew about hte whole 95 and 41 blah blah. im saying how you quoted it was confusing whatever. point is burning = bad. the end.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1898369' date='Jun 22 2009, 04:32 AM']yes i knew about hte whole 95 and 41 blah blah. im saying how you quoted it was confusing whatever. point is burning = bad. the end.[/quote]

That's not what the Pope said. The Pope said it's wrong to say "burning = bad."

Edited June 22, 2009 by Resurrexi

[heavenseeker]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1898370' date='Jun 22 2009, 04:36 AM']That's not what the Pope said. The Pope said it's wrong to say "burning = bad."[/quote]
and the Pope can say something and be wrong. so just because the Pope said something doesnt make it morally right

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1898371' date='Jun 22 2009, 04:40 AM']and the Pope can say something and be wrong. so just because the Pope said something doesnt make it morally right[/quote]

We are not allowed to disagree with the Pope when he exercises his authentic Magisterium.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Resurrexi

[heavenseeker]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1898369' date='Jun 22 2009, 04:32 AM']point is burning = bad. the end.[/quote]
or should we set fire to 2/3 of the world? i dont care about time or place, always a better way

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1898376' date='Jun 22 2009, 04:52 AM']or should we set fire to 2/3 of the world? i dont care about time or place, always a better way[/quote]

I never said that heretics should be executed today.

If every heretic living were burned at the stake, no more that one third of the world could possibly be executed since only one third of those living are baptized. A non-baptized person cannot be a heretic.

In contrast to the today, during the Middle Ages and Renaissance, nearly everyone in Western Europe was Catholic. Heresy was, thus, a danger to the State. As heresy was a harm to just public order, it was lawful for the state to impede the religious liberty of others (cf. Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, [i]Dignitatis Humanae[/i], 2). It was even lawful, in certain instances, to execute heretics since there was no other way to protect society.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Resurrexi

[heavenseeker]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1898373' date='Jun 22 2009, 04:47 AM']We are not allowed to disagree with the Pope when he exercises his authentic Magisterium.[/quote]
grab a torch cause its still binding then

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1898382' date='Jun 22 2009, 05:19 AM']grab a torch cause its still binding then[/quote]

[Kitty]

Would Jesus burn heretics?

I honestly think Jesus is more Christian than most of the church authorities.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1898811' date='Jun 22 2009, 04:00 PM']Would Jesus burn heretics?

I honestly think Jesus is more Christian than most of the church authorities.[/quote]

I don't think that our Lord discussed the burning of heretics during His earthly life. Christ did, however, give St. Peter the power to pronounce doctrinal judgments, a power destined to be transmitted to St. Peter's successors. Pope Leo X has condemned the proposition, "That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit." "Peter has spoken thus through Leo."

Edited June 22, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1898382' date='Jun 22 2009, 05:19 AM']grab a torch cause its still binding then[/quote]

Of course it is still binding.... in that it would not be morally objectionable for a heretic to be burned.

AS I said on the Other thread it does not say "All heretics should be burned."

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1898926' date='Jun 22 2009, 05:40 PM']AS I said on the Other thread it does not say "All heretics should be burned."[/quote]

Exactly.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1898811' date='Jun 22 2009, 03:00 PM']Would Jesus burn heretics?

I honestly think Jesus is more Christian than most of the church authorities.[/quote]
He was also more Jewish than all of the Church authorities.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1899012' date='Jun 22 2009, 07:16 PM']He was also more Jewish than all of the Church authorities. [/quote]


Well, accept Torquemada.