Sspx Goes Ahead With Ordinations

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1904683' date='Jun 28 2009, 08:45 PM']What do you mean by that?[/quote]

If I have to explain it, it's probably over your head. I do that sometimes, sorry.

[Nihil Obstat]

I agree with CatherineM in this. Regardless of what was expected, if the SSPX were as serious as we wish they were, they'd hold off, knowing it would only be temporary, until such a time as the Vatican said they could validly ordain. What it seems like to me is that they want to be back in communion with Rome, but only if it means they don't have to change at all. That's not how they have to look at this. Rome is not going to change for them.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1904685' date='Jun 28 2009, 08:47 PM']If I have to explain it, it's probably over your head. I do that sometimes, sorry.[/quote]

To me it seemed to imply that I might be ultramonatane now, but in a few years I will not be.

Is that what you intended?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1904687' date='Jun 28 2009, 08:48 PM']Regardless of what was expected, if the SSPX were as serious as we wish they were, they'd hold off, knowing it would only be temporary, until such a time as the Vatican said they could validly ordain.[/quote]

The SSPX bishops do [i]validly [/i]ordain if they say they say the correct words and perform the imposition of the hands with the correct intention.

The ordinations are merely [i]illict[/i].

Edited June 29, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Nihil Obstat]

Got them mixed up again.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1904688' date='Jun 28 2009, 08:49 PM']To me it seemed to imply that I might be ultramonatane now, but in a few years I will not be.

Is that what you intended?[/quote]
What I meant is that things change. There was a time when the Jesuits were ultra, and now they are deemed to be the driving force behind a number of pro-choice politicians. I'm not saying that you will change, but sometimes the church and/or the world can change around you.

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1904690' date='Jun 28 2009, 08:51 PM']The SSPX bishops do [i]validly [/i]ordain if they say they say the correct words and perform the imposition of the hands with the correct intention.

The ordinations are merely [i]illict[/i].[/quote]

The ordinations were a test of obedience, and they failed the test.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1904708' date='Jun 28 2009, 09:03 PM']The ordinations were a test of obedience, and they failed the test.[/quote]

The Pope knew that the bishops would perform the ordinations. It is true that the SSPX bishops' performance of the ordinations was not only a serious violation of canon law, but also a sin of grave matter. However, these talks could take a long time--a decade even. The Pope does not realistically expect the bishops and priests of the SSPX to stop celebrating the sacraments.

It reminds me of prostitution in Medieval Italy. Everyone understood that fornication was a sin of grave matter. Everyone also knew and that those who were fully culpable for the sin were going to hell unless they were absolved or made an act of perfect contrition with the intention of confessing. Nevertheless, prostitution was legal.

[Nihil Obstat]

How come you'll make excuses for breaking Canon Law if it's a traditionalist doing it?
There would be no excuse if this was a wacky liberal group.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1904722' date='Jun 28 2009, 09:15 PM']How come you'll make excuses for breaking Canon Law if it's a traditionalist doing it?
There would be no excuse if this was a wacky liberal group.[/quote]



You think that comparing the illicit nature of the ordinations to legal prostitution is making excuses?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1904725' date='Jun 28 2009, 09:16 PM']

You think that comparing the illicit nature of the ordinations to legal prostitution is making excuses?[/quote]
Knowing you, yes. I think youre minimizing the SSPX's actions.

Like I said, if this was a wacky liberal group, you would not in any way be trying to minimize this.

[CatherineM]

Res-you need to ask yourself if you are pro-Pope because he is the Pope, and you are an obedient Catholic, or if you support him simply because you agree with his view of the church. Many people believe that Pope Benedict is pushing for reconciliation with the SSPX because they are qualified and willing to say the Latin mass, where many bishops have not been as willing to promote it to the extent that Benedict wishes. How would you feel if the next Pope to get elected came out and outlawed the Latin mass, or outlawed Gregorian chant? He's the Pope, and he could will that. Would you still be an ultra then? I support the Pope's requests, which ever Pope is in office, even if I don't understand why I am being asked to do something. I also support my bishop. It can be hard for those of us in the pews to know what to do when our bishops don't agree with something the Pope is doing. It feels like getting in the middle of a fight between your mom and dad, or your mom and grandmother. All I can do is sit back, and hope it all gets worked out eventually, with the knowledge that the Holy Spirit will keep the Church on the right path. I often say that I want to follow God's will in all things, I just wish he'd let me know now and then, what that will is.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1904727' date='Jun 28 2009, 09:21 PM']Knowing you, yes. I think youre minimizing the SSPX's actions.

Like I said, if this was a wacky liberal group, you would not in any way be trying to minimize this.[/quote]

Have you ever considered the possibility that they the SSPX doesn't deserve half of the flack that some Catholics give it?

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1904727' date='Jun 28 2009, 11:21 PM']Knowing you, yes. I think youre minimizing the SSPX's actions.

Like I said, if this was a wacky liberal group, you would not in any way be trying to minimize this.[/quote]

This is what I've gotten from Smores' posts in this thread as well.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1904734' date='Jun 28 2009, 11:26 PM']Have you ever considered the possibility that they the SSPX doesn't deserve half of the flack that some Catholics give it?[/quote]

They deserve just as much flack as every other disobedient Catholic.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1904734' date='Jun 28 2009, 09:26 PM']Have you ever considered the possibility that they the SSPX doesn't deserve half of the flack that some Catholics give it?[/quote]
All I'm saying is that I think you're biased because they happen to be traditionalist. In any other case you'd be all about obediance to the pope, which is great, but it applies to everybody equally.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1904730' date='Jun 28 2009, 09:23 PM']Res-you need to ask yourself if you are pro-Pope because he is the Pope, and you are an obedient Catholic, or if you support him simply because you agree with his view of the church. Many people believe that Pope Benedict is pushing for reconciliation with the SSPX because they are qualified and willing to say the Latin mass, where many bishops have not been as willing to promote it to the extent that Benedict wishes. How would you feel if the next Pope to get elected came out and outlawed the Latin mass, or outlawed Gregorian chant? He's the Pope, and he could will that. Would you still be an ultra then? I support the Pope's requests, which ever Pope is in office, even if I don't understand why I am being asked to do something. I also support my bishop. It can be hard for those of us in the pews to know what to do when our bishops don't agree with something the Pope is doing. It feels like getting in the middle of a fight between your mom and dad, or your mom and grandmother. All I can do is sit back, and hope it all gets worked out eventually, with the knowledge that the Holy Spirit will keep the Church on the right path. I often say that I want to follow God's will in all things, I just wish he'd let me know now and then, what that will is.[/quote]

As you and I both know, no future pope would dare to suppress Gregorian chant or the use of Latin in the liturgy unless he wanted to destroy Latin Catholic [b]t[/b]radition and alienate some of his strongest supporters.

As to a disagreement between a bishop and the Pope, I would unhesitatingly follow the Pope.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1904740' date='Jun 28 2009, 09:34 PM']As to a disagreement between a bishop and the Pope, I would unhesitatingly follow the Pope.[/quote]
Isn't that what this is?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1904739' date='Jun 28 2009, 09:34 PM']All I'm saying is that I think you're biased because they happen to be traditionalist. In any other case you'd be all about obediance to the pope, which is great, but it applies to everybody equally.[/quote]

I feel that, if the canonical status of the SSPX were regularized, the SSPX could be one of the most important groups to play a part in the restoration of Catholic [b]t[/b]radition.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1904741' date='Jun 28 2009, 09:34 PM']Isn't that what this is?[/quote]

It's actually a disagreement between four bishops and the Pope.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1904743' date='Jun 28 2009, 09:37 PM']It's actually a disagreement between four bishops and the Pope. [/quote]
...and yet- hesitation.