bonkers Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 (edited) [quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1906139' date='Jun 30 2009, 08:57 AM']If abstinence requires actual repression for a person, then they are a slave to their own lust. And everybody will encounter sexual frustration - people who abstain and people who don't. If your answer is to give in to that, again, you're letting yourself be ruled by your desires. Rising above the level of direct impulses is something people of any religion and none can do.[/quote] I don't think people who choose to engage in consentual and legal sexual activity are "slaves to thier own lusts" and "ruled by their desires". Most people have a sufficient amount of control to choose whom and when they sleep with someone, and determine for themselves whether it's morally ok. Edited June 30, 2009 by bonkers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 [quote name='bonkers' post='1906147' date='Jun 30 2009, 08:30 AM']I don't think people who choose to engage in consentual and legal sexual activity are "slaves to thier own lusts" and "ruled by their desires". Most people have a sufficient amount of control to choose whom and when they sleep with someone, and determine for themselves whether it's morally ok.[/quote] even if it might cause them an STD or even AIDS which can kill them? IF your statement were true, there would be no worry over sexually transmitted diseases. apparently, people are slaves to their own lusts, even to the point of illness and even death... and to be perfectly honest, whether kids get the abstinence only program or the one that promotes "safe" sex, neither is efficient to prevent kids from getting STD's. Telling kids not to do it isn't preventing them from having sex, and showing kids how to put condoms on isn't stopping them from contracting diseases...not every kid who is shown how to have "safe" sex actually practices this when the moment comes... For those who believe, the only answer to this epidemic is God. If children are raised with a healthy fear of God, and learn how to respect themselves and others, they will not find themselves "repressed" just 'cos they don't shag like a bunch of monkeys... instead, they will have emotional and physical health, and they will certainly not have to worry about STD's... For those who choose not to believe in God, OR do not follow any moral responsibilities....well, i have no clue what can help you... shag away and reap the consequences... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniteAdoremus Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 [quote name='bonkers' post='1906147' date='Jun 30 2009, 04:30 PM']I don't think people who choose to engage in consentual and legal sexual activity are "slaves to thier own lusts" and "ruled by their desires". Most people have a sufficient amount of control to choose whom and when they sleep with someone, and determine for themselves whether it's morally ok.[/quote] I wasn't talking about people who choose to have sex, I was referring to people choosing to abstain. You indicated that this would lead to frustration and repression for "most people", which would be an argument not to abstain if you don't have religious motivations. All I was trying to say that if your argument is true, "most people" are obviously [i]not[/i] in control, only now you say they [i]are[/i], so I am getting confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 (edited) [quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1905496' date='Jun 29 2009, 04:59 PM']A Christian primary school (although the age group would be middle school in the US, I think) was in the news here recently because of a chastity project. They made each of the children buy a small gift for one of the others, with the instruction to pick something the other kid would really like. Then the instructors collected all the gifts, took them to another room, unwrapped them, broke the toys, ripped up the books, etc., and [i]then[/i] gave them to the intended recipients. Result: a bunch of crying kids. Moral of the story, according to the instructors: you aren't crying because [i]your[/i] toy is broken, because you didn't even know what it was going to be. You're crying because you wanted to make the other person happy and give them something they would like, but now that's broken. Same goes for getting married when you're not a virgin anymore. ... I thought that was pretty messed up. But maybe that's me.[/quote] the kids cried? How old were they like 8? What a crooked person. Had I been one of those kids, I would have thrown the broken present back at the teacher without flinching. Afterwords, I'd gather money from my fellow classmates to buy a lawyer and sue the teacher for enough money to buy new gifts 10 times the price... I guess the whole chastity message would get kinda skewed from there on. Edited June 30, 2009 by musturde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniteAdoremus Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 [quote name='musturde' post='1906178' date='Jun 30 2009, 05:51 PM']the kids cried? How old were they like 8? What a crooked person. Had I been one of those kids, I would have thrown the broken present back at the teacher without flinching. Afterwords, I'd gather money from my fellow classmates to buy a lawyer and sue the teacher for enough money to buy new gifts 10 times the price... I guess the whole chastity message would get kinda skewed from there on.[/quote] They were about ten years old, I think. I'm afraid we don't have much of a suing culture. That would have been brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 [quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1906165' date='Jun 30 2009, 09:28 AM']I wasn't talking about people who choose to have sex, I was referring to people choosing to abstain. You indicated that this would lead to frustration and repression for "most people", which would be an argument not to abstain if you don't have religious motivations. All I was trying to say that if your argument is true, [b]"most people" are obviously [i]not[/i] in control[/b], only now you say they [i]are[/i], so I am getting confused.[/quote] Feeling sexual repression or frusturation doesn't make you a slave to the flesh, this is a completely normal and natural consequence of abstaining unnecessarily. Being a slave ot the flesh would entail such things as rape or committing other unethical and illegal sexual acts, or having too much sex. If people choose to abstain that is there choice, but most people dont' want to because they see the arguments for it as contrived and weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christie_M Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) [quote name='bonkers' post='1906683' date='Jun 30 2009, 07:29 PM']Feeling sexual repression or frusturation doesn't make you a slave to the flesh, this is a completely normal and natural consequence of abstaining unnecessarily. Being a slave ot the flesh would entail such things as rape or committing other unethical and illegal sexual acts, or having too much sex. If people choose to abstain that is there choice, but most people dont' want to because they see the arguments for it as contrived and weak.[/quote] There are no "consequences" for abstainig. There are only consequences for those who do not abstain and go on to fill the desires of the flesh. Yes there can be frustration, and some people may feel repressed, but that's depends on the person's point of view. One simply needs to focus on other things (like prayer, God, homework, something.) and life become much easier. Rape, on the other hand is not neccesaceraly driven by sexual repression, but by anger, agression, and a need to feel power over someone else. edit:spelling Edited July 1, 2009 by Christie_M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamiller42 Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Jesus_lol, The justification or lack of justification for teaching what is proper and effective when practiced should not be based on whether students adhere or fail to adhere. Will the school board stop teaching that smoking is bad because some teens are still smoking? ("Not smoking is the safest option. But if you are going to smoke, here are some low tar cigs.") Should driving classes close because people still get in accidents? Should schools stop teaching proper dieting in health class because Americans are getting fatter? Of course not. Abstinence is the healthiest and safest option. It is difficult to teach in a time when "freedom" is misunderstood to mean "do what you want." It requires self-discipline. As teaching methods improve and hopefully our cultural too, the lesson of abstinence will reach its audience with greater effectiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 [quote name='Christie_M' post='1906706' date='Jun 30 2009, 09:54 PM']One simply needs to focus on other things (like prayer, God, homework, something.) and life become much easier.[/quote] I don't think homework and watering the pot plant are all that effective in quelling the instense biological drive to procreate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamiller42 Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 [quote name='bonkers' post='1906991' date='Jul 1 2009, 05:56 AM']I don't think homework and watering the pot plant are all that effective in quelling the instense biological drive to procreate.[/quote] Pre-marital sex is satisfying a drive to pro-create or recreate? I agree with the principle of the statement; keep the mind and body focused on other things and work to avoid situations which drive desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christie_M Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 [quote name='bonkers' post='1906991' date='Jul 1 2009, 03:56 AM']I don't think homework and watering the pot plant are all that effective in quelling the instense biological drive to procreate.[/quote] (most) People who have pre-merital relations don't have procreation in mind. Its lust that they have driving them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniteAdoremus Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 [quote name='Christie_M' post='1907165' date='Jul 1 2009, 08:10 PM'](most) People who have pre-merital relations don't have procreation in mind. Its lust that they have driving them.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='Christie_M' post='1907165' date='Jul 1 2009, 01:10 PM'](most) People who have pre-merital relations don't have procreation in mind. Its lust that they have driving them.[/quote] The biological drive is to procreate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniteAdoremus Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='bonkers' post='1908115' date='Jul 2 2009, 06:08 PM']The biological drive is to procreate.[/quote] Which is why atheists use contraception, of course. Make sense, it does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christie_M Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 [quote name='bonkers' post='1908115' date='Jul 2 2009, 09:08 AM']The biological drive is to procreate.[/quote] [quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1908142' date='Jul 2 2009, 09:36 AM']Which is why atheists use contraception, of course. Make sense, it does not.[/quote] What VA said. but we have to keep in mind that atheists aren't the only ones who use contraception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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