Abstinence Only In Florida Not Working

[picchick]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1906134' date='Jun 30 2009, 08:04 AM']Well to most people abstinence requires sexual repression and frusturation. And to most people discipline, unselfishness, care and true love exist with or without abstinence.[/quote]

There is other ways to express love than sex.

Sexual repression and Sexual frustration? What? Are we like wild animals or something? Sex is an expresion of love that is shared.

Sure discipline, unselfishness, care and true love can exist without abstinence. However, even without God, sex is the total giving of oneself to another. Furthermore, it is for the purpose of procreation. It is the purpose to make more babies. So why is it ok to use condoms to take away from its original purpose? How can you give your whole self when you have a condom between you and the other person?

[bonkers]

[quote name='picchick' post='1911966' date='Jul 5 2009, 07:47 PM']There is other ways to express love than sex.

Sexual repression and Sexual frustration? What? Are we like wild animals or something? Sex is an expresion of love that is shared.

Sure discipline, unselfishness, care and true love can exist without abstinence. However, even without God, sex is the total giving of oneself to another. Furthermore, it is for the purpose of procreation. It is the purpose to make more babies. So why is it ok to use condoms to take away from its original purpose? How can you give your whole self when you have a condom between you and the other person?[/quote]

Sex is an appropriate way of expressing love, and probably the most safe and intimate ways so long the right attitude is there and precautions are taken. When you put two humans who are in love together there is often a strong sexual attraction and both humans feel an intense urge to share this passion. Not doing it doesn't seem to have any tangible benefits other than avoiding STD's, but so long necessary precautions are taken this risk is drastically reduced anyway. It's up to individuals to decide whether they want to have sex or wait but I'm just telling you the argument for abstinence doesn't appear to be all that persuasive after you take all the god spin out of it.

[Archaeology cat]

OK, haven't read all of this, so my apologies if I'm repeating. I find it amazing that more of us in my area didn't sleep around, because our sex ed consisted of "don't do it!", "don't do anything until married, and then anything goes", and a lot of misinformation about biology (I was taught that menstruation isn't blood [in 5th grade], and that a woman can get pregnant at any time, instead of having a shorter time of fertility per cycle, though we were taught about ovulation and such [in 8th grade]). So if the sex ed in FL is anything like this, of course it will fail. Once the students realise they are being given incorrect info, they won't listen at all.

[Sirklawd]

you have to look at a persons entire day. we are not just taught in the 6 hours we are in a classroom. A normal day for a person, a teen especially, looks like this:

have sex have sex have sex
have sex why arnt you having sex
do you want love? you better be sexy
do you have a sexy body? get one!
you need to be attractive
want power? have many sexual partners
have sex have sex have sex
have sex have sex have sex
you should really try to wait to have sex if you want true love and health
have sex have sex have sex
have sex why arnt you having sex
do you want popularity? you better be sexy
do you have a sexy body? get one!
you need to be attractive!
want power? have many sexual partners
have sex have sex have sex
have sex have sex have sex

I seriously am amazed when people are surprised that abstinence education, for like what - 45 minutes a week? - doesn't work.

Here's the thing, its really simple. You have abstinence vs contraceptive sex ed, both are trying to help kids out and help them lead healthier, safer, more love-fill lives. except the abstinence group recognizes that promiscuity is a problem, and the contraceptive group wants to allow promiscuity at the same time.

Furthermore, the contraceptive side of the battle is voiced long after the student leaves the class room. On tv, in every form of media, and then in peers, everywhere, we are all encouraged to have sex, to look at eachother as means for sex, and to become the best at sex.

Chastity, ofcourse, is the real solution. Not mere repression. Chastity is a total change in a persons way of life and how they treat and look at other people. It SHOULD be taught in the schools, but it should be taught EVERYWHERE ELSE too. Parents and our media should encourage it all the time because it dignifies people, treats people as whole people and not as objects to be used.

Unfortunately there are those that are ok when people use others. Its there free will right? Right? because clearly there's no influence whatsoever on people [i]at all times of the day[/i] to use and be used if they want to be happy....

[tinytherese]

I agree with that we need more than simply abstinence education in schools. If the parents or guardians are not living chaste lives or are not talking to their kids about sex at all then it makes living a chaste life for the teens more difficult. Also, the kinds of friends and dates that one chooses make a difference.

I'd also say that abstinence education should choose its name because when people usually hear that a word, people typically associate it with negative annotations. I remember that when I was originally starting my chastity club that the name was at first going to be Pure Love Club, but then I decided that the name True Love Revolution was going to have a better affect on people because it cuts even deeper to the core of what we really stood for which was love...authentic love and not the same old counterfeit that the world offers us that doesn't satisfy and this is revolutionary. This is not repression like the world mistakingly thinks that chastity is about, but about love. Only one word is necessary to understand what chastity is and that is love. Unfortunately, not many people understand what love even is, that it is willing the best for another even to the point of sacrificing for them. Just read St. Paul's definitition of what love is and you will see how much of it applies to living a life of chastity. (True Love Revolution is also the name that they have at Harvard.)

Hmm, now what might be a better name for abstinence education? How about radical love education?

When I get to it I'll write on my blog where I'll give my personal testimony on why I am choosing to live a chaste lifestyle.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Sirklawd' post='1912624' date='Jul 6 2009, 05:20 PM']I seriously am amazed when people are surprised that abstinence education, for like what - 45 minutes a week? - doesn't work.[/quote]
45 minutes a week? That would be much more than I had. We had 1 week of sex ed for all of middle school. 1 day in elementary school. Nothing in high school.

[Christie_M]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1912835' date='Jul 6 2009, 03:26 PM']45 minutes a week? That would be much more than I had. We had 1 week of sex ed for all of middle school. 1 day in elementary school. Nothing in high school.[/quote]

I haven't had any at all. Just some bits and pieces from what my younger sister took in 9th grade, but not much more.

[Sirklawd]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1912835' date='Jul 6 2009, 05:26 PM']45 minutes a week? That would be much more than I had. We had 1 week of sex ed for all of middle school. 1 day in elementary school. Nothing in high school.[/quote]


wow. lol and I thought my 45 minutes a week guess was low..


this all leads to the obvious next question - how do the people FOR contraception-education judge the success or failure of their curriculum? Is it "reductions in teen pregnancy"? Because seriously, all that means is "increase in teen abortions".

or maybe they arnt trying to succeed at anything. maybe the whole point of contraception education is not to fight, not to try to change anything, but to waste money throwing condoms at teens under the guise of "keeping them safe from aids". I'd like someone who is against "abstinence" education explain why they are against it and what their goals for contraceptive education are.

Seriously, doesnt anyone find it suspect that Planned Parenthood is such a pusher for contraceptive education. If contraceptive education worked like its fans say it does - reducing teen pregnancy, wouldnt PP - who profits off of performing abortions - be destroying their customer base?? Or maybe they know what everyone knows, contraceptive education doesnt do anything but encourage teens to have sex with whoever they want whenever they want. By pushing so hard for contraception-education they are infact increasing their customer base. Get it in to kids minds as early as possible (kindergarden) that its ok to have sex whenever they feel like and by the time the kids are 20 they will have milked dozens of abortions out of them. SUUUre, some kids will use condoms, but not all the time, and if you increase the over all promiscuity levels across society there will be in increase in the needs for abortions.

It's pure genius from a business perspective. and pure evil considering the overall fallout: an entire generation of dead people, and another generation growing up to have no idea what love is, what family is, how to have a family, how to raise kids...


my mood =

and ofcourse, tinytherese is right

Edited July 7, 2009 by Sirklawd

[CatherineM]

Anything worthwhile is worth waiting for.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Sirklawd' post='1912624' date='Jul 6 2009, 10:20 AM']you have to look at a persons entire day. we are not just taught in the 6 hours we are in a classroom. A normal day for a person, a teen especially, looks like this:

have sex have sex have sex
have sex why arnt you having sex
do you want love? you better be sexy
do you have a sexy body? get one!
you need to be attractive
want power? have many sexual partners
have sex have sex have sex
have sex have sex have sex
you should really try to wait to have sex if you want true love and health
have sex have sex have sex
have sex why arnt you having sex
do you want popularity? you better be sexy
do you have a sexy body? get one!
you need to be attractive!
want power? have many sexual partners
have sex have sex have sex
have sex have sex have sex

I seriously am amazed when people are surprised that abstinence education, for like what - 45 minutes a week? - doesn't work.

Here's the thing, its really simple. You have abstinence vs contraceptive sex ed, both are trying to help kids out and help them lead healthier, safer, more love-fill lives. except the abstinence group recognizes that promiscuity is a problem, and the contraceptive group wants to allow promiscuity at the same time.

Furthermore, the contraceptive side of the battle is voiced long after the student leaves the class room. On tv, in every form of media, and then in peers, everywhere, we are all encouraged to have sex, to look at eachother as means for sex, and to become the best at sex.

Chastity, ofcourse, is the real solution. Not mere repression. Chastity is a total change in a persons way of life and how they treat and look at other people. It SHOULD be taught in the schools, but it should be taught EVERYWHERE ELSE too. Parents and our media should encourage it all the time because it dignifies people, treats people as whole people and not as objects to be used.

Unfortunately there are those that are ok when people use others. Its there free will right? Right? because clearly there's no influence whatsoever on people [i]at all times of the day[/i] to use and be used if they want to be happy....[/quote]great post

[picchick]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1912493' date='Jul 6 2009, 07:44 AM']Sex is an appropriate way of expressing love, and probably the most safe and intimate ways so long the right attitude is there and precautions are taken. When you put two humans who are in love together there is often a strong sexual attraction and both humans feel an intense urge to share this passion. Not doing it doesn't seem to have any tangible benefits other than avoiding STD's, but so long necessary precautions are taken this risk is drastically reduced anyway. It's up to individuals to decide whether they want to have sex or wait but I'm just telling you the argument for abstinence doesn't appear to be all that persuasive after you take all the god spin out of it.[/quote]

You are correct to say that sex is an appropriate way of expressing love. Yet by using "precautions" you take away from the purpose don't you? Come on, Budge, you don't have to be religious or believe in God to know that sex makes babies and that is what is for.

Now we can address the expession of love part. I don't know how old you are. I know that when I was in middle school/high school, love was more of a puppy dog love. It is very rare that high schoolers, especially in this give me give me society, have true love cases. They can not comprehend such an abstract thought at their developmental stage. They are impulsive and over emotional. They are trying to fit in and be wanted. How many of them are truly having sex because they are in true love, the kind that you are willing to sacrifice all of the other person. Instead, it adds the emotional stress of teenagers.

I have been truly in love before in my life and found other ways to express my love. I am now dating again and I still plan on not having sex. God and religion aside, I do not want the added stress of wondering if I am pregnant or if I now have some disease. And sex to me, is my total self giving to the other person. Personally, I would like to share that with one person, the person that I will share the rest of my life with.

[Winchester]

Yes, because condoms are a big secret. Kids only know about them if they hear about them in school. And we know kids always do what's responsible. That's why, after years of drug education programs, kids no longer abuse drugs!

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1913816' date='Jul 7 2009, 05:52 PM']Yes, because condoms are a big secret. Kids only know about them if they hear about them in school. And we know kids always do what's responsible. That's why, after years of drug education programs, kids no longer abuse drugs![/quote]
Not to mention how mysterious those birth control pills are. Maybe we should focus education dollars on teaching kids to read instructions.
Not that I'm advocating the pill, of course.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Nihil Obstat

[bonkers]

[quote name='picchick' post='1913799' date='Jul 7 2009, 06:30 PM']You are correct to say that sex is an appropriate way of expressing love. Yet by using "precautions" you take away from the purpose don't you? Come on, Budge, you don't have to be religious or believe in God to know that sex makes babies and that is what is for.

Now we can address the expession of love part. I don't know how old you are. I know that when I was in middle school/high school, love was more of a puppy dog love. It is very rare that high schoolers, especially in this give me give me society, have true love cases. They can not comprehend such an abstract thought at their developmental stage. They are impulsive and over emotional. They are trying to fit in and be wanted. How many of them are truly having sex because they are in true love, the kind that you are willing to sacrifice all of the other person. Instead, it adds the emotional stress of teenagers.

I have been truly in love before in my life and found other ways to express my love. I am now dating again and I still plan on not having sex. God and religion aside, I do not want the added stress of wondering if I am pregnant or if I now have some disease. And sex to me, is my total self giving to the other person. Personally, I would like to share that with one person, the person that I will share the rest of my life with.[/quote]

Sex isn't solely for procreation, although it is one of its main functions. The other main function is for building intimacy between couples and fun. Even in Catholicism, it's accepted that sex is ok at certain times of the month even if it's timed so as to not lead to conception. This could also be seen as a "precaution" and taking away from the natural purpose of sex, which is to make babies.

I don't think couples have to be in "true love" to be allowed to have sex. They may not be emotionally mature enough to comprehend fully what love is, but sex is not solely for only those who have found their soul mate. Anyone can have sex with anyone, so long it is consentual, legal and doesn't harm anyone. Whether your choice is to have sex or express your love in other ways that is a personal choice. I personally don't think we should be judging what other people do in the bedroom, just encouraging them to do it safely and with respect to their partner(s).

[picchick]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1914216' date='Jul 8 2009, 03:17 AM']Sex isn't solely for procreation, although it is one of its main functions. The other main function is for building intimacy between couples and fun. Even in Catholicism, it's accepted that sex is ok at certain times of the month even if it's timed so as to not lead to conception. This could also be seen as a "precaution" and taking away from the natural purpose of sex, which is to make babies.[/quote]

A HUGE difference though is that it is open to that other funtion of sex: procreation. Condoms just don't allow that. A condom's design is to block that function.

[quote]I don't think couples have to be in "true love" to be allowed to have sex. They may not be emotionally mature enough to comprehend fully what love is, but sex is not solely for only those who have found their soul mate. Anyone can have sex with anyone, so long it is consentual, legal and doesn't harm anyone. Whether your choice is to have sex or express your love in other ways that is a personal choice. I personally don't think we should be judging what other people do in the bedroom, just encouraging them to do it safely and with respect to their partner(s).[/quote]

And you are saying high schooler's are able to do this?

Do you know how many high schooler's would actually use a condom and safe sex practices?

Ok, so we tell kids to save sex. They don't listen to that.
We tell them to take out the trash, do their homework, whatever else...but then we KNOW that they are going to use a condom because this is different right? Because it deals with sex. Automatically teenagers are responsible.

right....

EDIT: Oh and I really am not judging who does what in the bedroom. I just know that abstinence is the way to go. I honestly think that if people would just wait to have sex until they got married, things would be a lot better off.

Edited July 8, 2009 by picchick

[bonkers]

[quote name='picchick' post='1914217' date='Jul 8 2009, 04:38 AM']A HUGE difference though is that it is open to that other funtion of sex: procreation. Condoms just don't allow that. A condom's design is to block that function.[/quote]

NFP isn't open to procreation, no matter how you spin it. The intention is to reap all the benefits of sex and intimacy without fulfilling the procreative aspect. Condoms work on exactly the same premise, except that NFP claims a moral high ground because it's more "natural" than condoms.

[quote]And you are saying high schooler's are able to do this?

Do you know how many high schooler's would actually use a condom and safe sex practices?

Ok, so we tell kids to save sex. They don't listen to that.
We tell them to take out the trash, do their homework, whatever else...but then we KNOW that they are going to use a condom because this is different right? Because it deals with sex. Automatically teenagers are responsible.
right....

EDIT: Oh and I really am not judging who does what in the bedroom. I just know that abstinence is the way to go. I honestly think that if people would just wait to have sex until they got married, things would be a lot better off.[/quote]

I don't think things are terribly bad at the moment to demand that people stop having sex and abstain. I personally have this choice myself and I choose not to abstain because I think the benefits of having sex outweigh the benefits of abstaining, but that's my own choice and I'm aware of the risks and choose to accept the consequences should anything go wrong (but I'm not too worried). Rather than teaching abstinence or condoms alone we should be teaching kids all about sexuality which includes respect for partner and responsibility and encouraging kids to make choices which are right for them.

[picchick]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1914218' date='Jul 8 2009, 05:11 AM']NFP isn't open to procreation, no matter how you spin it. The intention is to reap all the benefits of sex and intimacy without fulfilling the procreative aspect. Condoms work on exactly the same premise, except that NFP claims a moral high ground because it's more "natural" than condoms.[/quote]
Yeah it might be avoiding conception but it allows it to take place if it does. Condoms don't allow that to happen. Period. There is no ifs or maybes. It is the total blocking.

[quote]I don't think things are terribly bad at the moment to demand that people stop having sex and abstain. I personally have this choice myself and I choose not to abstain because I think the benefits of having sex outweigh the benefits of abstaining, but that's my own choice and I'm aware of the risks and choose to accept the consequences should anything go wrong (but I'm not too worried). Rather than teaching abstinence or condoms alone we should be teaching kids all about sexuality which includes respect for partner and responsibility and encouraging kids to make choices which are right for them.[/quote]

How old are you?

[bonkers]

[quote name='picchick' post='1914219' date='Jul 8 2009, 06:00 AM']Yeah it might be avoiding conception but it allows it to take place if it does. Condoms don't allow that to happen. Period. There is no ifs or maybes. It is the total blocking.[/quote]

Condoms don't work 100% of the time, they can have a defect or not be used properly, therefore there is still that "openess to life".

[quote]How old are you?[/quote]

I'm older than a kid.

[picchick]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1914223' date='Jul 8 2009, 06:26 AM']Condoms don't work 100% of the time, they can have a defect or not be used properly, therefore there is still that "openess to life".[/quote]
*sigh*
True but there is no "openess to life" when your attitude is: I am wearing this condom to prevent pregnancy. There is no "openess to life" when there is a piece of slippery rubber between you and your partner.

In NFP there is none of that therefore it is truly open to life.

[quote]I'm older than a kid.[/quote]
Sounds like many teenagers I know.

If you are older than a kid, then how can you not see the mess that pre-marital sex has caused many teenagers short and long term?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1914218' date='Jul 8 2009, 06:11 AM']NFP isn't open to procreation, no matter how you spin it. The intention is to reap all the benefits of sex and intimacy without fulfilling the procreative aspect. Condoms work on exactly the same premise, except that NFP claims a moral high ground because it's more "natural" than condoms.[/quote]

Then if you are in a dating relationship, you should have no qualms with practicing NFP, right?

NFP and condoms are not based on the same premise, however NFP and contraceptive pills are based on the same scientific premise. During the time a woman would normally be fertile, the pill releases hormones to prevent that portion of her cycle from working; NFP allows her cycle to proceed normally and the couple abstains during that time.

The difference is that NFP requires couples to think about the possibility of having children, to grow in discipline during periods of abstinence (pardon the pun), and on the spiritual side, there is also an orientation towards prayer and more conscious communion with God as a couple. None of these benefits are available to a couple using condoms or the pill because they require no change in behavior. NFP requires a change in behavior.