kafka Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1911366' date='Jul 5 2009, 05:58 AM']I do not accept the idea that Christ's human nature "worships" His divine nature, because worship is a personal act, and so to posit this idea is to divide Christ in a way that is contary to the teachings of both Chalcedon and Constantinople II. The conciliar tradition holds that through the incarnation Christ has two natures and two natural energies (divine and human), but that the energies proper to each nature are enacted (i.e., energized) by one and the same person, i.e., the divine person of the Logos made man. Thus, Christ's human nature does not do things, i.e., it does not act [i]per se[/i]; instead, Christ – the second person of the Holy Trinity – accomplishes actions in His humanity, just as He also accomplishes actions in His divinity. Finally, it is important to remember that it is a fundamental tenet of Orthodox Christology that natures cannot act, only persons can act, and to say otherwise involves embracing a form of Nestorianism.[/quote] I was presupposing the One Personhood of Christ. I wasnt dividing His Personhood. The fact is Jesus Christ has a human mind and will, and a Divine mind and will. His human will and mind are constantly turned inward in worship, and obedience, acceptance and awe toward His Divine mind and will, while remaining One Person (the Logos) It is a mystery one cannot completely break down and explain perfectly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Religion is for man, not God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' post='1911521' date='Jul 5 2009, 11:20 AM']Religion is for man, not God.[/quote] however God emptied Himself, becoming a man, and all true acts of religion in man are effected by God's grace. In order to truly worship God you need God. God become a man so that He could make all creation truly worship Him. {2:5} For this understanding in you was also in Christ Jesus: {2:6} who, though he was in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be seized. {2:7} Instead, he emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and accepting the state of a man. {2:8} He humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, even the death of the Cross. So it is a little more mysterious and subtle than one would first think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 We do know that Jesus worshiped and prayed to his Father, so the idea that he worshiped his divine side makes sense, but I wonder if his humility would have prevented him from doing so while on Earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1911601' date='Jul 5 2009, 12:23 PM']We do know that Jesus worshiped and prayed to his Father, so the idea that he worshiped his divine side makes sense, but I wonder if his humility would have prevented him from doing so while on Earth.[/quote] good point. I was building up a case for a constant internal worship. I would have to read the Gospels again for any external sign, however sometimes he did speak about himself in the third person. He is the only person allowed to do this. When some celebrity or sports star or some king begins to speak about himself in the third person, it is ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1911615' date='Jul 5 2009, 11:30 AM']good point. I was building up a case for a constant internal worship. I would have to read the Gospels again for any external sign, however sometimes he did speak about himself in the third person. He is the only person allowed to do this. When some celebrity or sports star or some king begins to speak about himself in the third person, it is ludicrous.[/quote] If there was any indication in the Gospels, I'd say it would have to be post-resurrection. I've often thought that the human mind just couldn't comprehend all that he was, but when his body was glorified, he might have seen things differently than he could have while contained in his mortal human body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1911634' date='Jul 5 2009, 12:46 PM']If there was any indication in the Gospels, I'd say it would have to be post-resurrection. I've often thought that the human mind just couldn't comprehend all that he was, but when his body was glorified, he might have seen things differently than he could have while contained in his mortal human body.[/quote] Well his human mind was of course limited, however he clearly and deeply knew (in his human mind) that He is Divine before his death. There is no question. Plus in my opinion his body wasnt mortal prior to his death. The only reason He died was an by an act of will in obedience to the Father. This I dont care to argue here but just thought I would mention it as a passing remark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1907498' date='Jul 1 2009, 07:00 PM']God is a founder of a religion.[/quote] Yes, Jesus founded a religion for us. A Religion is a human institution, and God isn't a member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 [quote name='icelandic_iceskater' post='1907564' date='Jul 1 2009, 08:37 PM']But... If the definition I learned in religion class is correct, then religion is the virtue that enables us to render unto God the praise, honor, and glory that is due to Him. Why would God be a member of a group that honors himself? God = love = selflessness. I doubt He worships Himself. And He needs no faith. He is omniscient. So why would Christ be a member of our church? The shepherd is not a sheep... the vine is not a grape... But can one be the head without being a member? The president is a citizen of the United States. Coach Babcock is a Red Wing. My dad is a member of my family. [/quote] I agree with that. Religion is a set of beliefs that connect us with God. Religions are way humanity seeks to "return to the source," in whatever way that is seen. We believe that is getting to Heaven to be with God for eternity. We believe Catholicism is the fullness of truth, and thus the truest way to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='kafka' post='1911519' date='Jul 5 2009, 09:19 AM']I was presupposing the One Personhood of Christ. I wasnt dividing His Personhood. The fact is Jesus Christ has a human mind and will, and a Divine mind and will. His human will and mind are constantly turned inward in worship, and obedience, acceptance and awe toward His Divine mind and will, while remaining One Person (the Logos) It is a mystery one cannot completely break down and explain perfectly[/quote] The way that you are wording your comments is Nestorian. Christ's human nature does not have a human mind; instead, it is the Logos who has a human mind through His assumption of human nature from the Holy Theotokos. Properties of natures are abstract, and only have concrete reality in a person (i.e., a subsistence). Edited July 5, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icelandic_iceskater Posted July 5, 2009 Author Share Posted July 5, 2009 Not trying to dumb down the discussion going on here or anything... but I am having a hard time understanding this. Why would a God that needs neither worship nor praise worship Himself? Is that not selfish? hmm... what do you mean by "worship"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1911866' date='Jul 5 2009, 05:43 PM']The way that you are wording your comments is Nestorian. Christ's human nature does not have a human mind; instead, it is the Logos who has a human mind through His assumption of human nature from the Holy Theotokos. Properties of natures are abstract, and only have concrete reality in a person (i.e., a subsistence).[/quote] you are right I'm not explaining it well enough. I should of put more thought into it before I posted. But in some sense it is true. I will try and come up with a better wording this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 [quote name='icelandic_iceskater' post='1911909' date='Jul 5 2009, 06:57 PM']Not trying to dumb down the discussion going on here or anything... but I am having a hard time understanding this. Why would a God that needs neither worship nor praise worship Himself? Is that not selfish? hmm... what do you mean by "worship"?[/quote] I need to come up with a better explanation of the point I'm trying to make. The human dimension of Christ in some sense worships the Father, but this gets difficult to explain since Christ is a Divine Person. I think a couple of my posts were worded badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 (edited) [quote name='kafka' post='1912037' date='Jul 5 2009, 06:35 PM']I need to come up with a better explanation of the point I'm trying to make. The human dimension of Christ in some sense worships the Father, but this gets difficult to explain since Christ is a Divine Person. I think a couple of my posts were worded badly.[/quote] Christ – as a divine person – worships His Father, but the human nature of Christ does nothing on its own. Natures do not act; instead, only persons act. Thus, it is not proper to say that Christ's human nature [i]thinks[/i], or that His human nature [i]worships[/i] the Father, or that it does anything else for that matter; rather, in order to remain faithful to the Christology of the Orthodox conciliar tradition, one must say that the divine person of the Logos made man [i]thinks[/i], both in a human way and in a divine way, and that He – as the second person of the Holy Trinity – [i]honors[/i] and [i]worships[/i] His Father. In other words, one must not predicate actions of Christ’s human nature, because doing that involves treating it as if it were a distinct human person, which it is not. Christ’s human nature is enhypostatized in the person of the eternal Logos. Edited July 6, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1912616' date='Jul 6 2009, 12:07 PM']Christ – as a divine person – worships His Father, but the human nature of Christ does nothing on its own. Natures do not act; instead, only persons act. Thus, it is not proper to say that Christ's human nature [i]thinks[/i], or that His human nature [i]worships[/i] the Father, or that it does anything else for that matter; rather, in order to remain faithful to the Christology of the Orthodox conciliar tradition, one must say that the divine person of the Logos made man [i]thinks[/i], both in a human way and in a divine way, and that He – as the second person of the Holy Trinity – [i]honors[/i] and [i]worships[/i] His Father. In other words, one must not predicate actions of Christ’s human nature, because doing that involves treating it as if it were a distinct human person, which it is not. Christ’s human nature is enhypostatized in the person of the eternal Logos.[/quote] This is also true of the Western Tradition. Just putting that out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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