Sen Hollings Wants Everyone To Do 2 Yrs N Military

[thicke]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Mar 30 2004, 07:59 PM'] HMMMMM. I don't think so. Sorry ya'll but this is screwd up. I will not support or defend a country that ruthlessly murders 4,000 babies a day. They can throw me behind as many bars as they wish. My "HOMELAND" is heaven. Besides it wasnt my Church that founded this country, it was a bunch of heretics. [/quote]
I have to concede to your point Just. Thank you for giving me something to think about, instead of fume about.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='thicke' date='Mar 30 2004, 09:35 PM'] And finally, what about [url="http://www.milarch.org/"]these guys[/url]?

[/quote]
Let me take that a step further. Look at this website about a military chaplain who was killed in Vietnam:

[url="http://www.father-capodanno.org/Father.htm"]http://www.father-capodanno.org/Father.htm[/url]

I actually met Fr. Mode, the author of "The Grunt Padre", at a talk. It is a very inspiring story. And from what I understand, there are some that may be taking up Fr. Capodanno's cause for sainthood.

And if you click on one of the pages on the site, the Navy named a ship after Fr. Capodanno - and the Pope blessed it!!

[M.SIGGA]

Ironmonk,

In Armed Resistance, intially you said:

[quote]2243
Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.
...

Once all five conditions are met, it is a Catholic's duty to resort to Armed Resistance.

...

Proverbs 31:8
Open thy mouth for the dumb, and for the causes of all the children that pass.
9Open thy mouth, decree that which is just, and do justice to the needy and poor.

Sirach 4:28
Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you. [/quote]

then Mulls asked what kind of "Armed Resistance" and you said:

[quote]"Armed Resistance" - Use of weapons[/quote]

and then I said the abortion issue is one best fought as a means of conversion and you said:

[quote]NO WHERE did I write we should pick up arms. I wrote it was CLOSE... and IT IS in line with what the Church teaches.[/quote]

I still believe the Pro-life issue is one best fought by means of Evangelism and conversion, but when our homeland, literally our homes and families and children, are under direct attack or if it is truly cause for Just War approved by the Church, it is our duty as Christians to fight.

Use of weapons leads to killing so I'm not following what you posted in this thread and actually the previous one either unless you have experienced a conversion/ change-of -heart or something of the sort - please clarify. Thanks.

[Carrie]

I don't think anyone should be forced. Didn't the founders of this country fight for our freedom? Forcing military service is taking away free will in regards to choosing whether or not to serve in the military. Not a good idea.

[Good Friday]

I oppose forced military service -- either in times of peace or not -- because the Church has affirmed the right of Christians to be pacifists. Both the Bishops of this country and the Holy Father have affirmed this right. Christian pacifism does have a history among the saints and holy people of the Church: Dorothy Day being the most recent, American example.

I also oppose it because it's against both the spirit and letter of United States law, as Ironmonk pointed out. There is absolutely no reason to require everyone to be involved in the military. On a practical level, forced military participation could actually [i]weaken[/i] the military, as Bullna pointed out. It's better to have a military full of volunteers who want to be there, than a military full of slaves (that is basically what we're talking about here, folks -- slavery) that don't want to be there. We can choose either to have a volunteer military, or we can have a slave military. If we choose slavery, then we violate our own Constitution and we violate the dogmatic and binding teaching of the Second Vatican Council.

Finally, I oppose the line of thinking that says every man should be in the military, or every man should go through military training. What purpose could that possibly serve? Will it make them "tougher" somehow, better men? If that's the case, someone should tell St. Joseph, St. Peter, or hey, Christ Himself, being that [i]none of them[/i] ever served in the military or went through military training. The military does not make saints, it makes killers. They may not be out there killing all the time, but the ultimate point of military training is to train someone to kill for his or her country. Even for medics, the point is for medics to minimize the loss of life and the severity of casualties so that the military won't lose so many men. Case in point: how many [i]enemy combatants[/i] do you see our medics helping? As much as I hate to agree with Ironmonk, I do agree that the military is ultimately about killing.

If the government were about to draft all men and women to become abortionists, there is little doubt that everyone on this thread would oppose it. That's why I find it so ludicrous that everyone [i]doesn't[/i] oppose this. It's still killing, folks. Do we care less about people once they're out of the womb or something? That seems to be what most of you imply, with your strong opposition to abortion but your acceptance, and at times support, of widespread capital punishment, war (just or unjust), etc.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Mar 31 2004, 01:02 AM'] Ironmonk,

In Armed Resistance, intially you said:



then Mulls asked what kind of "Armed Resistance" and you said:



and then I said the abortion issue is one best fought as a means of conversion and you said:



I still believe the Pro-life issue is one best fought by means of Evangelism and conversion, but when our homeland, literally our homes and families and children, are under direct attack or if it is truly cause for Just War approved by the Church, it is our duty as Christians to fight.

Use of weapons leads to killing so I'm not following what you posted in this thread and actually the previous one either unless you have experienced a conversion/ change-of -heart or something of the sort - please clarify. Thanks. [/quote]
As a soldier I could be forced to kill for unjust causes. As a soldier I would be trained to kill no matter what occupation I take within the military. As a soldier in boot camp I will have to fire a gun or get a dishonorable discharge to be treated like a felon, or locked up. --- [b]The fact that everyone in bootcamp must fire guns with the military's intention of that soldier being able to kill someone makes military about killing.[/b] I understand that we need military to be able to keep peace BUT forced military is just wrong. Military is needed to protect - how does it protect? - by killing attackers. Sometimes when you have a big enough "gun" you will not get attacked, but it is still about killing. If everyone is trained to kill in bootcamp, how is it not about killing?

"It is close" is what I said. 4000 innocent people are being killed every day. Torn to pieces by a quarter inch vaccum with a blade. - That is a just cause [b]after [/b]all other avenues to take up arms as long as it [b]is in line with what the Church has stated[/b].


God Bless,
ironmonk

[M.SIGGA]

So if the United States waged war on China against their ongoing and globally ignored human rights abuses which include millions more abortions and anti-life atrocities than the United States, would it then be in line with Church teaching? At what point does a war/military action become "Just" since abortion is not the only issue? Thanks.

Note: seeing all other attempts to avoid war have been exhausted - if there is ever such a point.

Edited March 31, 2004 by M.SIGGA

[M.SIGGA]

Ironmonk,

[quote]Sometimes when you have a big enough "gun" you will not get attacked, but it is still about killing. If everyone is trained to kill in bootcamp, how is it not about killing? [/quote]

It's about defense and "killing" or loss of life is a result, but it's not specifically about killing in our Republic. The United States I would hope to have believed is not a war-mongering nation - the military is supposed to be a tool of defense to defend our homes and women and children if need be, and since we have entered into a conflict (the Middle East) that probably will never end, we need all our citizens to be trained and ready on guard.

As sad as all this sounds the United States is now a warring nation with a self proclaimed War President and like it or not we have been forced to become a "warring people" until this conflict is over or a change of government/policy takes place.

Seeing the candidates we have and the voting options that Catholics are faced with in the next Presidential Election, I don't think the "warring nation" status is going to change if/when Bush is re-elected.

Our volunteer military will eventually be exhausted and if we are going to continue to wage war we will need a readily trained army to defend our homeland. When it comes to the safety of our homes/women/children it's not about likes and dislikes anymore - it's what a man has to do and it's a Christian man's obligation to provide and protect his family.

If warring politicians continue to be elected, the next option has to be manditory military service, which is common in Israel, Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and in parts of the Third World where military life is important because wars errupt suddenly and governments change really quickly, but you probably know all this already!

I personally hate war and everything that has to do with it and my suggestion is to completely avoid the entire situation in the first place so we are not forced to get envolved. It's a waste of human life and talent for earthly possessions that will certainly come to pass away anyway.

[MrsFrozen]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 30 2004, 09:52 PM'] Military is about killing... that is it's purpose. It's nothing against veterans, it's the basic of why military is used. [/quote]
Sorry, Ironmonk, but the military is about defending and protecting the country. Sometimes it comes to killing, but the majority of people in the people in the military have never killed and will never kill anyone. I think a lot of civilians believe that those in the military are trained to be killing machines, and that's not true.

I agree with 99.9% of your posts, Ironmonk, but I have to charitably disagree with this one.

God bless.

[MrsFrozen]

Policemen are required to know how to shoot, too. Does that make the police force about killing?

God bless.

[MrsFrozen]

Frozencell, who is in the Air Force, says the military is about benefits and tax-free deployment money. Hahahah...

[ironmonk]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='Mar 31 2004, 02:54 PM'] So if the United States waged war on China against their ongoing and globally ignored human rights abuses which include millions more abortions and anti-life atrocities than the United States, would it then be in line with Church teaching? At what point does a war/military action become "Just" since abortion is not the only issue? Thanks.

Note: seeing all other attempts to avoid war have been exhausted - if there is ever such a point. [/quote]
The US would have to exhaust all diplomatic means first. If waging war was the only way then it would be justified. [b]WHY don't you pay attention to what is posted and use critcal thinking. Don't just go off of one or two lines, but look at all that is written. [/b]

War becomes just when it meets what the Church says is a just war... duh... it's clearly in the post. Are you even reading them?

I personally think that we should cut all trade with China unless the human rights violations stop. No middle ground, they must stop. Christians must be released from prisons that went to prison for being Christian. The gov. must stop forced abortions and sterilizations on women that get pregnant a second time. The gov. must lift the ban on more than one child, girl babies are being killed at birth because of the law. etc...


God Bless,
ironmonk

[M.SIGGA]

Ironmonk,

I'm just not following your arguments because they seem to say two different things, and yes I actually do read everything

You seem to be a gungho "call to arms" American (Christian) man ready to stand up against injustice with an "iron" fist most of the time and then all of the sudden have the passive bleeding heart of a humble contemplative "monk."

This combined with the sometimes demaning manner in which you respond to posts makes it really hard to converse and relate to the platform of the argument you are trying to get across.

If my argument has been choppy, please let me clarify:

All I'm saying is that defense (army, navy, coast guard, air force, police dept, etc) can't be equated to just killing, and I think that has been the overall opinion thus far regarding this topic, except your own. If someone elects and supports a warring leader/administration they also need to accept and support the effects of the decision to start wars - which will include a draft once our military is exhausted and the readiness for re-inforcements to maintain an adaquate defense.

I also don't think it is arguable (sp?) that it's a Christian's obligation to protect and defend the well-being, health, faith, and the lives of women and children.

If you really happen to be a passive bleeding-heart individual, like myself I chose not to get into the situation in the first place, but I will be willing to fight if the war is a Just cause, or if the situation is turned around where my home and my people and my faith is under attack.

I'm not trying to call you stupid or teach you a lesson or anything like that because I know you are an educated person and if I have come across that way I apologize.

Peace.

Edited April 1, 2004 by M.SIGGA