Odd Discovery

[the lords sheep]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1912507' date='Jul 6 2009, 02:55 PM']Priests should be tried before an ecclesiastical court, not a civil one.[/quote]

In spite of their consecration in service of the Church, priests (and religious) are still citizens/residents of a particular nation and they are subject to that nation's laws. A priest caught speeding could would still be subject to a traffic ticket/traffic court. Similarly, a pedophile is subject to criminal law.

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's....


Terra, As far as your situation: I can understand where it would make you uncomfortable. Honestly, without knowing about him and the specific cases he defended, I can't comment much on it all.

Do I think the victims are owed something? Honestly, I don't know. I don't think I would want any part of the money from that kind of settlement, even if I needed it for psychiatric bills or what have you.

Do I think the plaintiff/lawyer(s) were greedy in the settlements they sought? Yes, I think they wanted too much money, but that's for the court to decide.

You have to discern (if it really bothers you that much), on what grounds exactly are you objecting to what he does? That he's (possibly) greedy? That he's (possibly) greedy and his greed was directed at the Church? If he had conducted the same suits against Baptists or a school board, would it bother you as much? [btw, I'm not trying to challenge your feelings, I'm just playing devil's advocate]

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1912526' date='Jul 6 2009, 09:57 AM']I'm honestly not sure. We were given the certificate as a gift, and really the time we spent together was good for us. My husband even enjoyed it, and he previously would have poo-pooed B&B's out of hand.[/quote]

I believe that.

[quote]I think we probably would have gone, since the money was already spent and was non-refundable.[/quote]
Right....
[quote]I don't know whether we would do the same one again though. We're not going next week or anything, so we have time to think about it.[/quote]
Well, if you don't go in the next few months, it may be years... YEARS, I TELL YOU!!!

[Lil Red]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1912505' date='Jul 6 2009, 06:53 AM']And so... what would you have done if you'd known before you went?[/quote]
good question.

[quote name='Gregorius' post='1912519' date='Jul 6 2009, 07:35 AM']Here in the United States, lawyers can now receive up to half of the earnings won in court. So when someone complains that billions of dollars were payed out by the church in these cases, tell them that's because of the outrageous sums lawyers ask for nowadays, not because of a large number of victims.[/quote]
that's just sad.

[quote name='Gregorius' post='1912519' date='Jul 6 2009, 07:35 AM']A unicorn, an honest lawyer, and a leprechaun are walking down a street and they see a $20 bill laying on the ground. Who gets the money?[/quote]
none of those things exist.

actually, i have a friend who is a lawyer and is Catholic and he's pretty awesome

[Gregorius]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1912597' date='Jul 6 2009, 11:49 AM']none of those things exist. [/quote]
Glad somebody got it.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1912487' date='Jul 6 2009, 06:53 AM']Criminal prosecution is one thing. That results in jail time for the priest and others involved. This guy is a civil attorney, so he saw a financial windfall coming when he began to hear about the abuse. He gets a percentage of the settlements or civil victories when the Church is sued because of abuse allegations.[/quote]

Without ever meeting this lawyer and hearing his side of the issue, you've decided the guy is a swindler out for personal gain? He probably has made a nice chunk of change from these cases, but what nobody talks about is the countless hours he invested in behalf of the victims to make a strong case for them. Lawyers work very hard -- practically sacrificing their lives -- just to get into a position where they could work a high profile case like that, and those high profile cases have got to be a lot of work in themselves. Just imagine the incredible amount of research and interviewing and consultation would be required to make a case that will stand up against a defense team working just as hard.

If nothing else, he doesn't sound like a wasteful person. Not many people who work ridiculous hours are willing to invest their income in a second business.

[quote name='Gregorius' post='1912519' date='Jul 6 2009, 10:35 AM']Here in the United States, lawyers can now receive up to half of the earnings won in court.[/quote]

Emphases on the word "can." Gas can cost $4.00/gallon. Do you have reason to believe this is normal and expected?

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1912526' date='Jul 6 2009, 10:57 AM']I don't know whether we would do the same one again though. We're not going next week or anything, so we have time to think about it.[/quote]

Well, God knows Jesus never dined at sinners' houses.

Edited July 6, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Sojourner]

[quote name='the lords sheep' post='1912529' date='Jul 6 2009, 08:59 AM']You have to discern (if it really bothers you that much), on what grounds exactly are you objecting to what he does? That he's (possibly) greedy? That he's (possibly) greedy and his greed was directed at the Church? If he had conducted the same suits against Baptists or a school board, would it bother you as much? [btw, I'm not trying to challenge your feelings, I'm just playing devil's advocate][/quote]
Without specifically naming him, I can say he's been involved in several high-profile abuse cases around the country.

I think civil attorneys are necessary, and in one way perhaps they were even necessary to hammer home to our leaders that what was happening with priests was completely unacceptable. I think we are foolish if we don't admit that what happened was awful, and not only was the abuse awful but the way it was covered up and priests were shuffled from parish to parish was awful. I think there were failures on the part of our leaders, and perhaps the pecuniary wounds inflicted by the suits will help ensure these types of situations are dealt with properly in the future.

That being said, I am not comfortable with how attorneys and courts have handled this on the civil front. These settlements have been so large they've forced some dioceses into or near bankruptcy. Parishes are being closed and sold to pay costs. And we have to ask who is really suffering as a result of this. Sure, the bishops get bad press, but what's really happening is that money gets diverted from ministries and parishes, where it could have been put to a variety of charitable uses. The laity and larger communities are feeling the sting, perhaps in a more personal way than the bishops do. I could be wrong in my assessment, but it seems to me that the cost is coming from people other than the ones who made mistakes. There's no good way to avoid that, either, because of the way many dioceses are structured.

And for what? This is for far more than psychiatric care. Money for that, similar costs, and modest attorney fees, I could understand and support. But we're talking far more than that. I don't believe the amounts are warranted, and while this guy is not the only attorney doing this work he's clearly supporting and perpetuating the situation.

I am less concerned with the amount the attorneys get as with the fact that these suits are digging too deep, and are harming the people they ostensibly seek to protect. I don't think I would feel appreciably differently if it were Baptists involved, although obviously the fact that it's Catholic is a little closer to home.

[mcts]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1912709' date='Jul 6 2009, 01:24 PM']Without ever meeting this lawyer and hearing his side of the issue, you've decided the guy is a swindler out for personal gain?[/quote]

i'm pretty sure that she DID actually meet the guy.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1912709' date='Jul 6 2009, 01:24 PM']Without ever meeting this lawyer and hearing his side of the issue, you've decided the guy is a swindler out for personal gain? He probably has made a nice chunk of change from these cases, but what nobody talks about is the countless hours he invested in behalf of the victims to make a strong case for them. Lawyers work very hard -- practically sacrificing their lives -- just to get into a position where they could work a high profile case like that, and those high profile cases have got to be a lot of work in themselves. Just imagine the incredible amount of research and interviewing and consultation would be required to make a case that will stand up against a defense team working just as hard.

If nothing else, he doesn't sound like a wasteful person. Not many people who work ridiculous hours are willing to invest their income in a second business.



Emphases on the word "can." Gas can cost $4.00/gallon. Do you have reason to believe this is normal and expected?



Well, God knows Jesus never dined at sinners' houses. [/quote]
Yeah, I did meet the guy. No I didn't ask him about his side of the issue. Yes, I did read his website pretty carefully, and it lays out his side of the issue fairly clearly.

I know what lawyers do for a living. I'm almost one myself.

God knows I've dined in sinner's houses several times in my life, but that's not really the issue, is it?

[CatherineM]

The reason lawyers receive up to 50% of settlements is that they take many cases that they receive no money for. If every plaintiff had to pay the actual costs of a civil litigation up front, very few "little guy" cases would ever be taken. You get hurt on the job, hit by a drunk driver, or have a pig farm go in next door, and you won't complain about how much your attorney made on another case that allows him to front the expenses for your law suit.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1913402' date='Jul 7 2009, 10:31 AM']Yeah, I did meet the guy. No I didn't ask him about his side of the issue. Yes, I did read his website pretty carefully, and it lays out his side of the issue fairly clearly.

I know what lawyers do for a living. I'm almost one myself.

God knows I've dined in sinner's houses several times in my life, but that's not really the issue, is it? [/quote]

Well, it's funny... most of us personally know honest lawyers, yet we assume they're all crooks because a rare few make bank on some high profile case.

What is the issue? Let's not forget the abuse that occured at the hands of priests and religious. So a few lawyers are making too much money off the settlements? The money doesn't heal the victims' pain... it's a poor substitute at best, but I'm still more concerned over the perpetrators and victims of sex abuse than a greedy lawyer any day.