Advice On Difficult Conversation

[Sojourner]

OK. So, my husband has four German shepherds. They are purebred AKC dogs from an East German line so ... not cheap dogs. He absolutely loves them. I ... tolerate them. I like dogs, but he has not been able to take the time to train the younger two (siblings from the same litter) and they are not always well-behaved.

So here is a brief synopsis of our situation:
* We are moving, but before we get fully moved we need to finish out about 1800 sq. ft. of the new house that is completely bare (studs) at the moment. This will house his business, plus indoor kennels for the dogs. Right now, we are basically living between the two houses, and are about 60 percent moved. This will take about three more months.

* After we move, we have another 2700 sq ft of house that will need to be finished, including some reworking of the kitchen to make it function more efficiently.

* My husband just got a slough of orders for his business. This is good b/c it means things are going well, but bad because it means he will be working very long hours for the foreseeable future, while balancing supervising house construction.

* We are having a baby in February.

So here is the difficult conversation that needs to be had. One of the dogs, a 5-year-old male, has a problem. It is similar to IBS in humans, with alternating diarrhea and constipation. He is often in obvious pain due to this condition. He has lost a substantial amount of weight. There are other problems associated with this as well, but let's just say that this is an extremely unpleasant situation do deal with in a dog that lives in the house. This is a major reason I insisted that the dogs be kept absolutely in the basement of the house and never in the main living area.

The vet has told my husband the dog will not get better. He gets stabilized for a few weeks at a time with medications and diet, but inevitably gets back into the same cycle, which creates enormous messes. My husband is, right now, cleaning such a mess out of the back end of his car.

I think the dog should be put down. My husband refuses to talk about it, and maintains hope (which I think is irrational) that the dog will get better. No one he has talked to, including the vet, other German Shepherd owners, or his own research, has led him to believe this is true. What I foresee is a long, slow, painful death for this dog while my husband keeps hoping to achieve long-term stability.

My husband thinks that once things slow down things will get better. I just don't foresee things slowing down any time in the future. In fact, I see things getting increasingly complicated with moving, construction, and the arrival of our child. To his credit, my husband takes care of the dogs all on his own, so I do not have to deal with the messes, but still it is a stress on him, and therefore on us.

I'd love to hear any advice on how to deal with this. It is extremely emotional for my husband, and I respect that, but at some point in the near future I think he is going to have to make a very difficult decision. How can I address this in a way that is compassionate and loving? Am I wrong to even bring this up at all?

[rhetoricfemme]

I'm sorry this is happening. I don't think you'd be wrong in bringing it up at all.

It actually sounds just like what my sister went through with her husky a few years ago, although his condition was more of an onset of old age. He couldn't hold his bowels or his bladder, and having been potty trained for most of his 12 years, you could just tell that he was ashamed and frustrated because he knew better. It was painful for him, and whatever pain meds the vet gave him were a stall at best, and would wear off too soon to keep him comfortable anyway.

She eventually had him put to sleep, as it was the best thing she could do for him, but she waited as long as possible. She'd had so many hardships in her life, and that dog was there the entire time, always by her side.

The evidence is there, it just sounds like your husband is doing his best to put off the inevitable. Maybe remind him to just look at his dog, recall what even the vet said to be true. Maybe if you offer to be by his side when the time comes to put down his dog. It's not an easy thing to do, and I bet it would mean the world to him.

[MIKolbe]

I agree with you that the dog needs to be put down. I know what it's like to 'hope against hope' that a situation will work itself out. But, sometimes God gives us pushes to help guide us to do what we must. I guess I do not see it as abandoning hope, but listening to the 'now'. I know that sounds all psycho-babblish; but it's how i see it.

I think you 2 need to get away from the house, away from the dogs, away from everyone (maybe go to a park or something). Bring tissues, and tell him the stress it is putting on you. He loves you and will listen. Further, you are having a baby in a few months and any talk of 'things slowing down' will be laughable once baby gets here.

I worry about when baby is 6 month and crawling around and what if he (i am thinking baby is a boy) were to 'get into' one of the dog's messes. I do not mean to be gross, but if the dog is in that much pain and just needs to go, you have to admit it may be a possibility.

Talk with him, one to one, alone, no dogs. Tell him this is not out of any anger you may or may not have (i just say that in case the pack of dogs might irk you at times) This is out of love for your child, and is the kindest thing for the dog. Because as much as he thinks he will get better, he doesn't know that and therefore must admit (at least intellectually) that things could get worse. And to say, 'i wish i did that sooner', is going to hurt more than doing the kind thing in the present. (at least in my opinion)

[CatherineM]

When I needed to have a dog put down, and couldn't bring myself to do it, my mother's boyfriend offered to take him and stay with him until it was over. I'm a coward with grief issues, so it was a real blessing for me for him to handle it for me. Perhaps if you offered to do the same or find someone who would it would be easier on him to agree to it.

[Mercy me]

I just went through this a few months ago without the complication of the baby and houses. He knows that it is inevitable. He has to. The dog is still young. He needs to come to know that it is "time" on his own. He will know, pushing makes it harder.

[Sojourner]

Thanks everyone. I will definitely go with him, when the time comes. My husband is the kind of guy whose emotions run deep under the surface, but when I brought this up a month or so ago he got very emotional about it. I know he is thinking about it and just very hesitant to take such a decisive step when the dog is so young.

MiKolbe, I agree about the health concerns. That was actually one of my primary motivations for insisting that the dogs have their own special place in the basement, in an area that is very easy to keep clean. The way he kept things when he was a bachelor was, frankly, unacceptable even without kids. So we have had that part of the discussion.

I think what I am going to do is say that we need to get a second opinion from a completely different vet, not just a different vet in the practice we go to usually. If the second vet's opinion concurs with our vet's, then we need to have a very serious discussion about how to move forward. If not, and the second vet can suggest a different course of treatment, then great. I just want him to feel like he is making a decision based on the best possible information. I'll go with him to the vet, too, because I want to be able to ask questions and be part of the decision. I don't want my husband to feel like he is completely alone in this.

I feel so bad for him. He absolutely loves his dogs. The reason we have two from the same litter is that when he went to buy a new puppy he couldn't decide between them because they were both so cute. He is such a sweetheart, and it breaks my heart that he has to make this decision.

[Nihil Obstat]

A responsible vet would probably strongly recommend putting the dog down. It's never easy (and I would know because I've been through it more than once), but it has to be done.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1922054' date='Jul 16 2009, 11:10 PM']OK. So, my husband has four German shepherds. They are purebred AKC dogs from an East German line so ... not cheap dogs. He absolutely loves them. I ... tolerate them. I like dogs, but he has not been able to take the time to train the younger two (siblings from the same litter) and they are not always well-behaved.

So here is a brief synopsis of our situation:
* We are moving, but before we get fully moved we need to finish out about 1800 sq. ft. of the new house that is completely bare (studs) at the moment. This will house his business, plus indoor kennels for the dogs. Right now, we are basically living between the two houses, and are about 60 percent moved. This will take about three more months.

* After we move, we have another 2700 sq ft of house that will need to be finished, including some reworking of the kitchen to make it function more efficiently.

* My husband just got a slough of orders for his business. This is good b/c it means things are going well, but bad because it means he will be working very long hours for the foreseeable future, while balancing supervising house construction.

* We are having a baby in February.

So here is the difficult conversation that needs to be had. One of the dogs, a 5-year-old male, has a problem. It is similar to IBS in humans, with alternating diarrhea and constipation. He is often in obvious pain due to this condition. He has lost a substantial amount of weight. There are other problems associated with this as well, but let's just say that this is an extremely unpleasant situation do deal with in a dog that lives in the house. This is a major reason I insisted that the dogs be kept absolutely in the basement of the house and never in the main living area.

The vet has told my husband the dog will not get better. He gets stabilized for a few weeks at a time with medications and diet, but inevitably gets back into the same cycle, which creates enormous messes. My husband is, right now, cleaning such a mess out of the back end of his car.

I think the dog should be put down. My husband refuses to talk about it, and maintains hope (which I think is irrational) that the dog will get better. No one he has talked to, including the vet, other German Shepherd owners, or his own research, has led him to believe this is true. What I foresee is a long, slow, painful death for this dog while my husband keeps hoping to achieve long-term stability.

My husband thinks that once things slow down things will get better. I just don't foresee things slowing down any time in the future. In fact, I see things getting increasingly complicated with moving, construction, and the arrival of our child. To his credit, my husband takes care of the dogs all on his own, so I do not have to deal with the messes, but still it is a stress on him, and therefore on us.

I'd love to hear any advice on how to deal with this. It is extremely emotional for my husband, and I respect that, but at some point in the near future I think he is going to have to make a very difficult decision. How can I address this in a way that is compassionate and loving? Am I wrong to even bring this up at all?[/quote]

I think the decision has been probably made on the intellectual level, he is just not ready to initiate it. Ask him if he thinks the dog is in pain or discomfort or generally unhappy, and what are the limits of suffering he can tolerate and for how long.

On the other hand have you changed the dogs diet or stopped feeding commercial foods altogether? Or started adding cooked rice, oatmeal and probiotic yogart? Some dogs just cannot deal with a corn-based diet. My SIL is in animal research so we have discussed this stuff when my beasties have been sick.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1922593' date='Jul 17 2009, 07:56 AM']\On the other hand have you changed the dogs diet or stopped feeding commercial foods altogether? Or started adding cooked rice, oatmeal and probiotic yogart? Some dogs just cannot deal with a corn-based diet. My SIL is in animal research so we have discussed this stuff when my beasties have been sick.[/quote]
I'm not in charge of feedings but I know he's on a special diet from the vet which includes a mix of canned and dry food along with various supplements. Nothing seems to work long-term.

[Gregoriana of Nyssa]

My former cat started having bowel and bladder problems late in life. I constantly had to clean up cat pee and mushy mud pie where it wasn't supposed to be, and the house began to stink of cat pee. She kept having to go to the vet hospital. I secretly longed for a vet, not a relative with an opinion, to say it was time, that putting her to sleep would not be irresponsible and "murder." But no, they kept saying, give her this medication for the arthritis, try this diet.

The cleanup was exhausting, and then I got pregnant and we had to move into a larger place before the baby came. I finally broke down and asked my husband to make the appointment....After it was done, he came home (I couldn't bear to be there) and told me the vet agreed it was time. That was a huge comfort, and stopped the tears.

But why couldn't a vet have told me this before all the grief we went through cleaning up after her and taking extreme means to re-housetrain her? It seemed like everybody who knew about the situation just assumed that I wanted to keep the cat around as long as possible, and didn't see how she was deteriorating. But as much as I loved her, the only reason I kept her alive was nobody told me it was okay to put her to sleep. The vets always made it sound like she could still be cured.

I can't help but wonder if your hubby is going through the same thing. Cleaning up all that dog mushy mud pie can't possibly be fun....

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Gregoriana of Nyssa' post='1926349' date='Jul 21 2009, 03:18 AM']I can't help but wonder if your hubby is going through the same thing. Cleaning up all that dog mushy mud pie can't possibly be fun....[/quote]
No it's not fun, but I've been there on at least one occasion when the vet said, "You know, if this doesn't start clearing up soon you are going to have to start thinking about putting him down."

My husband is extremely emotionally attached to his dogs, and is irrationally hopeful that the dog will get better. It has been more than a year, and it is clear that the problem is not getting better. Last fall, the dog lost more than 20 pounds, and has only gained back 5 or so of that because of the condition. My husband is holding on to hope that once we get settled in a month or so, he'll finally find the right combination of drugs and diet and the dog will be like he was.

I understand to a point. I don't want to cut short the dog's life just for convenience. But we have about a week of every six where things go horribly, horribly awry. We have to take him to the vet, and there are several days of messes, then he's back in manageable state for a while. The really annoying thing is that the steroids they give to treat the mushy mud pie problem end up causing excessive urination and hunger, which is almost worse than the disease.

It will, I think, come to a head not long after we are settled, so ... around Thanksgiving, probably. I was hoping to get things resolved before moving and partial renovations are complete, but that doesn't seem likely at this point.

[homeschoolmom]

I think maybe you just need to have a heart to heart with him. I understand that for a long time, his dogs have been his babies and companions. He now has a wife and a baby on the way. Neither one of you will have the energy to deal with a sick dog. Imho, it would be better to deal with this now and grieve well before the baby comes. It would be better for the two events to not be intertwined so that you can know that the dog was put down because he was very sick and not getting better rather than suspecting it was merely more convenient and always feeling somewhat guilty about it. Even if you didn't have a baby coming, it would be the right thing to do.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1926445' date='Jul 21 2009, 08:48 AM']Even if you didn't have a baby coming, it would be the right thing to do. [/quote]
I agree. It's just a matter of not pushing harder than he's willing to take.

[StColette]

Terra,

This is a very difficult process and decision to make. I studied vet med for a little while and I've been around animals all my life. Judging from the severity of the illness that this dog has and the suggestion and treatments of the Vet., I believe the right thing to do would be to put the dog to sleep. If the dog is only staying in stable conditions for a few weeks, and then relapses, it's definitely a red flag to an animal health care professional. It seems this has been a continuing problem for quite some time. A dog's body, like that of a human, can only take so much. Repeated use of medications can cause organ functions to slow and even to cease working. That's one of the draw back to medications. While medications may treat the symptoms and the disease, they often cause damage to other organs, like the kidneys and liver. If the dog was staying stable for months at a time, I would say it's worth keeping him alive but the condition of his other organs should be monitored closely.

The first time I went home with Micah, a couple Springs ago, the family Irish Setter took a huge turn for the worse. He had been having seizures off and on for years. The seizure medication gradually has to be increased over time period, but with this increase comes dangers. After repeated, regular use the medication began damaging his kidneys. While I was there his kidneys went into failure and he was having one seizure after another because of the kidney failure. The only thing the vets could do was keep him in a constant coma to stop the seizures from happening. It was very painful to watch, especially for Micah's mom.

That experience is definitely not one I would wish on any owner or animal. If the vet is suggesting to put the dog to sleep, I'm positive he has a valid reason. He could be foreseeing future problems like kidney or liver failure, etc.

[Norseman82]

Have you asked the vet about sprinkling a bit of Metamucil on the dog's food during the diarrhea periods?

Edited July 21, 2009 by Norseman82