Banned Books

[Selah]

No.

[Gregorius]

I have unknowingly read a few of the books on the index, and my faith is still intact. Did you know Victor Hugo's [u]Les Miserables[/u] was on the index?

Some books were placed on the index not because they were "dangerous" but simply because they were inaccurate or contained inaccurate information about the Church or the faith.

[zunshynn]

[quote name='philothea' post='1925530' date='Jul 20 2009, 01:22 AM']Nowadays, it would be a free publicity push for any title listed. Authors would TRY to get on it.[/quote]

I agree... I just don't think it would work. I do like the idea of the Vatican reviewing books, though.

And I'm pretty sure Catholic book stores will still sell heretical books, even if there was an Index. I mean, does Notre Dame follow the Church's guidelines for the way Catholic Universities should operate? Umm... no.

And when there are rules like that and they are disobeyed, it just makes the Church appear more outdated, like "its fine to ignore it because it doesn't know anything"

But I don't think that the abrogation of the index is the cause of the problems we have in the church today, and I don't think reinstating it will solve them.

Of course, I totally agree that the Holy See has the RIGHT to institute an index, and I think the faithful should obey it if it was, but I'm just saying they probably won't. Making more rules doesn't make people more obedient. For better or for worse, we live in a culture where even Catholics disdain the Church's teaching and authority... and the Church does have to address that culture, not just try to make it go back to the way it was at the Council of Trent. Even if that was ideal, it just won't happen.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Gregorius' post='1925575' date='Jul 20 2009, 09:01 AM']I have unknowingly read a few of the books on the index, and my faith is still intact. Did you know Victor Hugo's [u]Les Miserables[/u] was on the index?

Some books were placed on the index not because they were "dangerous" but simply because they were inaccurate or contained inaccurate information about the Church or the faith.[/quote]

[i]Les Mis[/i] was on the list because it supports condemned economic systems, If I am not mistaken.

[i]The Count of Monte Cristo[/i] was on the Index, too, by the way.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1925433' date='Jul 20 2009, 12:31 AM'][/quote]


Someday I think it needs to be reinstated. But definitely not now. I think in some years, maybe decades (or more?...) after certain things pass then yes it should be brought back. As for right now, I think it would just cause far more trouble than it would help. The bishops instead should be counseling their priests on popular books that aren't appropriate and the priests should then take the initiative to relay the message to their faithful, whether through the homily or letters or some other means.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1925522' date='Jul 20 2009, 01:00 AM']The point is so that the faithful know what books are dangerous.[/quote]
Because the faithful are mindless sheep?

In your case, how can you argue against something if you have no idea what it's even about? Reading books about a subject is the lowest level of research you can do, i think it would be unwise to rid people of the option of researching things that way.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1925789' date='Jul 20 2009, 04:51 PM']Because the faithful are mindless sheep?

In your case, how can you argue against something if you have no idea what it's even about? Reading books about a subject is the lowest level of research you can do, i think it would be unwise to rid people of the option of researching things that way.[/quote]

Books about heresies and other erroneous opinions were never forbidden. There were many widely available books about heresies that anyone was welcome to read and were probably even recommended.

Books defending heresies, however, were indeed forbidden, since they might lead the faithful astray.

[rachael]

Oh brother.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1925792' date='Jul 20 2009, 03:53 PM']Books about heresies and other erroneous opinions were never forbidden. There were many widely available books about heresies that anyone was welcome to read and were probably even recommended.

Books defending heresies, however, were indeed forbidden, since they might lead the faithful astray.[/quote]
Books written about condemned things aren't as helpful as reading the books themselves. You have to try to understand from the point of the author, not to agree, but to get a grasp on their argument in order to better structure your own.

Your argument rests on believing that people have no control over their minds and need someone to tell them what to believe. In this day and age, it's not like that anymore. People have a far wider access to knowledge and don't need the church to explicitly tell them what and what not to read.

Besides, if the people who can't handle their own minds are the ones you are targeting, why would they even listen to the church in the first place about what not to read? It's bass ackwards logic.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1925798' date='Jul 20 2009, 04:58 PM']Books written about condemned things aren't as helpful as reading the books themselves. You have to try to understand from the point of the author, not to agree, but to get a grasp on their argument in order to better structure your own.

Your argument rests on believing that people have no control over their minds and need someone to tell them what to believe. In this day and age, it's not like that anymore. People have a far wider access to knowledge and don't need the church to explicitly tell them what and what not to read.

Besides, if the people who can't handle their own minds are the ones you are targeting, why would they even listen to the church in the first place about what not to read? It's bass ackwards logic.[/quote]

In the past, if one had a good reason to read a forbidden book, he could always get permission from ecclesiastical authority to read it. I think that this helped to make sure that the person reading the banned book wasn't doing so without a purpose.

If a person wanted to read a book defending Protestantism because he was taking a class on the Reformation, he would probably be granted permission. If a person wanted to read that same book because he was merely curious about Protestantism, he probably would not.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Resurrexi

[rachael]

Rexi, what is your purpose of threads such as these?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='rachael' post='1925818' date='Jul 20 2009, 05:20 PM']Rexi, what is your purpose of threads such as these?[/quote]

My purpose is to discuss and dialogue about an important topic.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Resurrexi

[homeschoolmom]

Why is this so important to you?

[Resurrexi]

So far NihilObstat and Goldenchild have both suggested interesting possible solutions. Perhaps this discussion will bring about more interesting and innovative ideas such as those.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1925829' date='Jul 20 2009, 05:28 PM']Why is this so important to you?[/quote]

I like the idea of harmful and dangerous works being banned (or perhaps even only reviewed) to keep Catholics from being led astray by erroneous opinions.

[Resurrexi]

It is important to note that, even though Pope Paul VI did indeed abolish the Index, that the Index "the Index retains its moral force despite its dissolution" ([url="http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/poem_of_the_man.htm"]Letter of Cardinal Ratzinger[/url]). This means that Catholics still should not expose themselves to harmful books for no reason.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1925839' date='Jul 20 2009, 04:37 PM']It is important to note that, even though Pope Paul VI did indeed abolish the Index, that the Index "the Index retains its moral force despite its dissolution" ([url="http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/poem_of_the_man.htm"]Letter of Cardinal Ratzinger[/url]). This means that Catholics still should not expose themselves to harmful books for no reason.[/quote]
I think that's a no brainer for anyone serious about their faith. Again, it's the case of people who aren't strong in their faith/aren't practicing aren't going to follow Church directive anyway, and those who are serious about their faith are going to guard themselves and only read what they find necessary.

But the idea that the Church should take the responsibility in deciding what people should and shouldn't be reading is somewhat offensive even to the faithful because we all have free will and are capable of making decisions, and being that reading a book isn't a sin in and of itself, its not the place of the Church to say you can't do it, even if they have a complete lack of faith in your own ability to control your own mind and avoid being "led astray."

[Marie-Therese]

On a personal level, I am opposed to the concept of banning any type of media. However, I think that book/movie reviews etc. would be very helpful in terms of deciding what content a person should expose themselves to. I would find an entity of the Church which offered guidance on that sort of thing very helpful.

When I hear the word "ban" I can't help but get this immediate cringe and think of goose-stepping Nazis. I do think that there would be several effective ways to guide the faithful without going to that type of extreme.

[eagle_eye222001]

I think having a list of banned books back in the day (Council of Trent) was a useful tool as the people were not as learned back then and it was much more difficult to balance out the bad with the good reading material. If someone read a sketchy book, it was much more difficult to find a comparable book to address it.

Having a list nowadays would not be good since many people are learned and can tell for themselves that a certain book may be questionable (hopefully anyway ). Plus, you can read a sketchy book and find solid Catholic books that address it without too much hassle as we have the internet and libraries all over the place. It doesn't take much effort to find good Catholic reading material.

In short, back then, they did not have much information at their fingertips. Today, we drown in it.

[quote name='philothea' post='1925530' date='Jul 20 2009, 03:22 AM']

Nowadays, it would be a free publicity push for any title listed. Authors would TRY to get on it.[/quote]

Yep. Look at the Vatican and compare it's actions against the first DaVinci movie with the second.

[BG45]

I voted no. I quite frankly enjoy knowledge for knowledge's sake; and reading things gives one a better idea about them. I'm quite welcome in any local pagan group for example, because they know I actively disagree with them and won't hesitate to voice those opinions, but I know my stuff as far as Neo Paganism goes. Being able to have a civil discourse on knowledge most Christians would look down upon as unworthy of study. And thus comes my main fault with the idea of reinstating the Index; Saint Paul calls upon people to be as he, all things to all people. One can not engage people of different viewpoints if one has no clue what they're talking about...at least if one wishes to be taken more seriously than a nuisance.

As to the subject of refutations...this is slightly off topic, but a good example of a Catholic work responding to what would be a banned work is Scott Hahn's utter refutation of the God Delusion by Dawkins. Hahn and his co-author go through and systematically refute points on mathematics, philosophy, scientific theory, and even quote other Atheists who stated Dawkins took them out of context.

Edit: The book is "Answering the New Atheism". Thank you channel surfing and hitting EWTN.

Edited July 21, 2009 by BG45