goldenchild17 Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1932330' date='Jul 26 2009, 03:20 AM']He's not the one carying it or going through labor. I understand your point. I really do and it is a fair one. However he does not cary the baby, the mother does. I don't see where he gets a right to veto her actions in this case.[/quote] Fair 'nuff. I do believe that both people, the woman included, know what they're getting into when they have sex. Sure the man has it easier, but the woman knows that she can get pregnant. Girls aren't stupid (sometimes, ). Just my opinion that a pregnancy doesn't give them exclusive rights to decide what to do with a child that should legally and biologically belong to both parents involved. But I see where you're coming from too. Just have to leave it that I guess, peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 [quote name='goldenchild17' post='1932331' date='Jul 26 2009, 03:36 AM']But I see where you're coming from too. Just have to leave it that I guess, peace [/quote] I think that would be wise. I don't think either of us is going to convince the other, but it seems we can both understand where the other is comming from. As usual it has been nice disagreeing with you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1932330' date='Jul 26 2009, 05:20 AM']He's not the one carying it or going through labor. I understand your point. I really do and it is a fair one. However he does not cary the baby, the mother does. I don't see where he gets a right to veto her actions in this case.[/quote] It takes Two consenting adults to consummate a child, intentional or not. The father DNA is just as much a part of the fetus as the mother. The father is a equal it this creation. As for a father’s role in the nine months of gestation, I lived with the mother (still do) and of my children and i felt that I was pregnant too. Also it does not end at nine months either; gestation takes 18 to 30 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniteAdoremus Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1932330' date='Jul 26 2009, 11:20 AM']He's not the one carying it or going through labor. I understand your point. I really do and it is a fair one. However he does not cary the baby, the mother does. I don't see where he gets a right to veto her actions in this case.[/quote] Ugh. I really dislike this reasoning. In my opinion, when you do something which might lead to the conception of a baby, you void your rights to not having your body interfered with by said baby. I think this law nicely reflects how it doesn't become the father's kid at birth, but at conception. The father should help with the costs of pregnancy as well (but don't put that in the bill or they might sign the consent slip all that faster...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 [quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1932348' date='Jul 26 2009, 08:37 AM']I think this law nicely reflects how it doesn't become the father's kid at birth, but at conception. The father should help with the costs of pregnancy as well (but don't put that in the bill or they might sign the consent slip all that faster...)[/quote] Money or financial support is only part of the equation; a father is a parent is a man who is the parent of a human being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christie_M Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1932317' date='Jul 26 2009, 01:41 AM']He doesn't have any right to hold a veto over her [/quote] Ok, here's an actual situation that has happened before. Older boyfriend/girlfriend/couple end up conciving a child together. The guy actualy wants the child to come to term, but a few weeks later they get into an argument and she goes and has an abortion to "get back at him". He's the legal/biological father and has every right to his child living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christie_M Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 [quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1932314' date='Jul 26 2009, 01:35 AM']this doesnt say that a man can now legally force an abortion, merely that it requires his permission and the womans, to have one. i like it.[/quote] you like what? [quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1932348' date='Jul 26 2009, 05:37 AM']Ugh. I really dislike this reasoning. In my opinion, when you do something which might lead to the conception of a baby, you void your rights to not having your body interfered with by said baby. [b]I think this law nicely reflects how it doesn't become the father's kid at birth, but at conception. [/b]The father should help with the costs of pregnancy as well (but don't put that in the bill or they might sign the consent slip all that faster...)[/quote] i didn't see it that way. nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1932330' date='Jul 26 2009, 04:20 AM']He's not the one carying it or going through labor. I understand your point. I really do and it is a fair one. However he does not cary the baby, the mother does. I don't see where he gets a right to veto her actions in this case.[/quote] Well, let's put the shoe on the other foot. Let's say the father doesn't want the baby, but the mother elects not to have an abortion. She can force him to pay child support for [b]18 years[/b]. Men bear a burden in this as well, and it lasts longer than 9 months and includes lots of labor. [quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1932348' date='Jul 26 2009, 07:37 AM']Ugh. I really dislike this reasoning. In my opinion, when you do something which might lead to the conception of a baby, you void your rights to not having your body interfered with by said baby. I think this law nicely reflects how it doesn't become the father's kid at birth, but at conception. The father should help with the costs of pregnancy as well (but don't put that in the bill or they might sign the consent slip all that faster...)[/quote] I completely agree on both points. One area I think needs to be addressed more fully is the role of contraception in abortion. People think of contraception as being effective, but the fact is that every form of contraception has a failure rate -- some higher than others. But because of the perception that it IS effective, I think people are more and more losing the connection between sex and pregnancy, and therefore engage in sexual behaviors thinking they are absolved of responsibility. There's a sort of reliance created by the rhetoric of contraception. A relatively recent U.S. Supreme Court case ([i]Casey[/i], I think) pointed to this reliance as a reason that we must keep abortion legal. Abortion guarantees that sex can be responsibility-free. (Or at least, free of the responsibility of pregnancy ... other responsibilities, apparently, are outside governmental interference). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 In the past, when it came to the rights of one side or another, usually the rights of men have held. It will be interesting to see where this goes. Perhaps they will do some kind of compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 [quote name='Christie_M' post='1932464' date='Jul 26 2009, 12:26 PM']you like what? [/quote] i like the law proposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christie_M Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 [quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1932940' date='Jul 27 2009, 01:28 AM']i like the law proposed.[/quote] nevermind. I read that you liked that the man and woman can both have an abortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 [quote name='Christie_M' post='1932460' date='Jul 26 2009, 02:19 PM']Ok, here's an actual situation that has happened before. Older boyfriend/girlfriend/couple end up conciving a child together. The guy actualy wants the child to come to term, but a few weeks later they get into an argument and she goes and has an abortion to "get back at him". He's the legal/biological father and has every right to his child living.[/quote] I know such situations happen. I guess in this case, although it is not the normal prism through which I view the issue, it is a matter of the woman having control over her body. He does not cary the foetus nor does he go through labor. She does and as such he doesn't get to have a veto. He doesn't have the right to control her body like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 [quote name='Terra Firma' post='1932485' date='Jul 26 2009, 03:02 PM']Well, let's put the shoe on the other foot. Let's say the father doesn't want the baby, but the mother elects not to have an abortion. She can force him to pay child support for [b]18 years[/b]. Men bear a burden in this as well, and it lasts longer than 9 months and includes lots of labor.[/quote] What is this point supposed to prove? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniteAdoremus Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1933174' date='Jul 27 2009, 09:06 PM']I know such situations happen. I guess in this case, although it is not the normal prism through which I view the issue, it is a matter of the woman having control over her body. He does not cary the foetus nor does he go through labor. She does and as such he doesn't get to have a veto. He doesn't have the right to control her body like that.[/quote] But does he have the right to protect his child's body? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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