No Compromise On Vatican Ii: Fellay

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Skinzo' post='1940717' date='Aug 4 2009, 09:16 PM']Why would you doubt him?

S.[/quote]

I am fairly cynical.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1940709' date='Aug 4 2009, 11:12 PM']How are you to know that he will follow though with what he said?[/quote]

He hasn't compromised on anything else, why start now?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1940726' date='Aug 4 2009, 09:31 PM']He hasn't compromised on anything else, why start now? [/quote]

[Skinzo]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1940719' date='Aug 4 2009, 11:19 PM']I am fairly cynical.[/quote]

Who isn't? But to be more specific, is there a reason to doubt Fellay? What has he done that would make you doubt him?

S.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1940063' date='Aug 3 2009, 06:26 PM']By the way, The Bishop Williamson "fiacso" has nothing to do with the reunion of the SSPX with the Holy See. Whether 15,000,000 or 15,000 persons were killed during the holocaust has nothing to do with faith and morals.[/quote]
I agree. It worries me when I read things by Catholics that practically elevate the holocaust to dogmatic status. It is an historical event unconnected to Christian revelation and as a consequence a person's views on it have no impact upon his status in the Church.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1940144' date='Aug 3 2009, 08:09 PM']Though [b]I personally do think that about six million Jews and around 11 to 19 million persons total were killed in the Holocaust[/b], as a Catholic I will not impose that view on my fellow Catholics since the Magisterium has not ever made and will not ever make a pronouncement on the matter as it has nothing to do with faith or morals.[/quote]
Your views on the holocaust are theologically irrelevant to me, but you are free to hold the stated position as a matter of secular history.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Skinzo' post='1940190' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:13 PM']I agree the Church is unlikely to pronounce upon the subject. Nonetheless, she can make acceptance of the Holocaust a condition for anyone to function as an ANYTHING in the Church. It is within her disciplinary power to do so. You think Bishop Williamson might be allowed to function as a priest?? You keep grasping at straws. Think again. You're forgetting the case of Father Abrahamowicz, a priest of the SSPX who vigorously defended Williamson. Bishop Fellay expelled him immediately. At this writing it seems unlikely that anyone in the SSPX will be able to remain as a bishop or priest if they have the views of Williamson.

S.[/quote]
The Church's governing authorities can make no binding pronouncement on the holocaust, because taking a particular historical position on that issue is beyond the competence of the "magisterium," which means that no Catholic could ever be bound to accept as a matter of faith a particular position taken on that issue by the Pope or the Roman Curia.

[Apotheoun]

I do not see why people keep talking about compromise. Theological dialogue between different groups is not about compromise; instead, it is about discovering whether or not apparent disagreements concerning the nature of truth are substantive or merely nominal.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Skinzo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1942039' date='Aug 6 2009, 02:50 PM']The Church's governing authorities can make no binding pronouncement on the holocaust, because taking a particular historical position on that issue is beyond the competence of the "magisterium," which means that no Catholic could ever be bound to accept as a matter of faith a particular position taken on that issue by the Pope or the Roman Curia.[/quote]

I agree, but you are missing my point. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that as a practical and disciplinary matter the church may exclude candidates for holy orders who hold the opinion that the Holocaust never happened. That in fact, is what is happening now. Benedict XVI holds very strong views on this; in his last discourse on the subject he said that such views are "intolerable": "It is beyond question that any denial or minimization of this terrible crime is intolerable and altogether unacceptable. Recently, in a public audience, I reaffirmed that the Shoah must be “a warning for all against forgetfulness, denial or reductionism, because violence committed against one single human being is violence against all” (January 28, 2009)."
Denying the Holocaust does not make one a heretic but as the Cardinal Secretary of State has said it does make one a "liar". As a disciplinary matter the Church can exclude one from ordination based on any number of conditions which have nothing to do with heresy.

S.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Skinzo' post='1942066' date='Aug 6 2009, 12:09 PM']I agree, but you are missing my point. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that as a practical and disciplinary matter the church may exclude candidates for holy orders who hold the opinion that the Holocaust never happened. That in fact, is what is happening now. Benedict XVI holds very strong views on this; in his last discourse on the subject he said that such views are "intolerable": "It is beyond question that any denial or minimization of this terrible crime is intolerable and altogether unacceptable. Recently, in a public audience, I reaffirmed that the Shoah must be “a warning for all against forgetfulness, denial or reductionism, because violence committed against one single human being is violence against all” (January 28, 2009)."
Denying the Holocaust does not make one a heretic but as the Cardinal Secretary of State has said it does make one a "liar". As a disciplinary matter the Church can exclude one from ordination based on any number of conditions which have nothing to do with heresy.

S.[/quote]
A man's views on the holocaust would be a foolish reason to exclude him from ordination.

The political correctness presently embraced by some members of the Church's hierarchy is something that will ultimately hinder the Gospel.

[Apotheoun]

It is utter foolishness when the Church's "magisterium" issues statements on the holocaust, because the topic is beyond its special competence.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1942093' date='Aug 6 2009, 03:34 PM']A man's views on the holocaust would be a foolish reason to exclude him from ordination.

The political correctness presently embraced by some members of the Church's hierarchy is something that will ultimately hinder the Gospel.[/quote]

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I would disagree because holding such an opinion is simply wrong and offensive. It also shows a lack of integrity. One could also argue that it is a sign of psychological impairment as the historical evidence of the Holocaust is overwhelming. It is not a matter of "political correctness". No serious historian of any persuasion, left or right denies the Holocaust happened. Would the Orthodox Church ordain someone who publicly denied the Crusaders sacked Constantinople? I doubt it.


S.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Skinzo' post='1942101' date='Aug 6 2009, 12:51 PM']That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I would disagree because holding such an opinion is simply wrong and offensive. It also shows a lack of integrity. One could also argue that it is a sign of psychological impairment as the historical evidence of the Holocaust is overwhelming. It is not a matter of "political correctness". No serious historian of any persuasion, left or right denies the Holocaust happened.


S.[/quote]
Thank you for re-emphasizing my point, i.e., that the historical interpretation of the data surrounding the holocaust is a matter of opinion, and one where Catholics are free to disagree, because it is not a matter of divine faith.

[quote name='Skinzo' post='1942101' date='Aug 6 2009, 12:51 PM']Would the Orthodox Church ordain someone who publicly denied the Crusaders sacked Constantinople? I doubt it.[/quote]
I can only answer your question based on my personal encounters with Orthodox Christians (and I know quite a few of them) and they would see the topic in question as theologically irrelevant.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Skinzo]

I believe we can safely say that a candidate for ordination in the Orthodox Church who is blatantly anti-Semitic and denies the Holocaust is perfectly acceptable to be ordained in the Orthodox Church as such views are entirely acceptable to the Orthodox Church. No orthodox bishop would object to any priest who regularly espoused such views.


S.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Skinzo' post='1942118' date='Aug 6 2009, 02:25 PM']I believe we can safely say that a candidate for ordination in the Orthodox Church who is blatantly anti-Semitic and denies the Holocaust is perfectly acceptable to be ordained in the Orthodox Church as such views are entirely acceptable to the Orthodox Church. No orthodox bishop would object to any priest who regularly espoused such views.


S.[/quote]

Claiming, like Bishop Williamson, that only 300,000 Jews were killed in the Holocaust does not necessarily make someone antisemitic.