No Compromise On Vatican Ii: Fellay

[Skinzo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1947562' date='Aug 12 2009, 11:11 PM']Haven't heard that before. Proof and his quotes please.[/quote]

Do some googling and you can find it in two seconds yourself.

S.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Skinzo' post='1947643' date='Aug 12 2009, 10:02 PM']Do some googling and you can find it in two seconds yourself.

S.[/quote]

You have the burden of evidence.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1947644' date='Aug 12 2009, 09:03 PM']You have the burden of evidence.[/quote]
Unless you're actually interested in the truth, in which case, you'd be researching for yourself because you'd have an undeniable urge to mimic God's objective truthfulness.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1939184' date='Aug 2 2009, 07:13 PM']No, there shouldn't. But who gets to claim the Truth - the Church, or a splinter group? The SSPX can dislike Vatican II as much as they want, but they're going to be hardpressed to convince the Vatican that the Council was wrong and they were right.[/quote]

Let's see, who's right? The splinter group or the Universal Church. The one with a renegade bishop or the see of Rome that has the guarantee that the gates of hell shall not prevail? Hmmmmmm. No compromise on truth? Nope. There won't be.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1947652' date='Aug 12 2009, 11:09 PM']Unless you're actually interested in the truth, in which case, you'd be researching for yourself because you'd have an undeniable urge to mimic God's objective truthfulness.[/quote]
Smart.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Skinzo' post='1947643' date='Aug 12 2009, 11:02 PM']Do some googling and you can find it in two seconds yourself.

S.[/quote]

No, you made the charge you do some googling and you can find it in two seconds yourself. I want to see the quotes from ✠Williamson that you believe denies the holocaust.

Edited August 13, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[Skinzo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1947992' date='Aug 13 2009, 12:49 PM']No, you made the charge you do some googling and you can find it in two seconds yourself.[/quote]

Can't be bothered. It's an irrelevant question anyhow. The German law covers not only holocaust denial but those who attempt to minimize it. He's stuck either way.
Hmmm, aren't you the same guy who tried to tell me there was no act of schism on the part of the SSPX bishops?? Then I went to the trouble to show you that John Paul's motu proprio "Ecclesia Dei" is quite explicit on that subject, as indeed was Cardinal Gantin's decree of excommunication. I think you already knew that.....That's why I can't be bothered....

S.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Skinzo

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Skinzo' post='1947994' date='Aug 13 2009, 11:53 AM']Can't be bothered. It's an irrelevant question anyhow. The German law covers not only holocaust denial but those who attempt to minimize it. He's stuck either way.

S.[/quote]

This isn't about German law. This is about you making a claim you can not prove. If he is truly a holocaust denier as you claim, then provide the evidence. He is a Holocaust minimizer, I suppose, but you claimed he was a holocaust denier. The two are not the same. Provide evidence or retract the comment.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Skinzo' post='1947994' date='Aug 13 2009, 11:53 AM']Can't be bothered. It's an irrelevant question anyhow. The German law covers not only holocaust denial but those who attempt to minimize it. He's stuck either way.
Hmmm, aren't you the same guy who tried to tell me there was no act of schism on the part of the SSPX bishops?? Then I went to the trouble to show you that John Paul's motu proprio "Ecclesia Dei" is quite explicit on that subject, as indeed was Cardinal Gantin's decree of excommunication. I think you already knew that.....That's why I can't be bothered....

S.[/quote]

I am the guy that told you what the Church authorities now teach about the SSPX, and how they are not in Schism. The Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei has stated multiply times the SSPX are not in schism. Archbishop Lefebvre is the one that committed the schism act. The Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei which represents the Pope (Both John Paul II and Benedict XVI) has quite explicitly stated the SSPX is not in schism. So we can believe your interpretation of Ecclesia Dei, or we can believe the Church's interpretation.

[KnightofChrist]

PS. if you can't be bothered with proving your claims, you shouldn't bother making them.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1948003' date='Aug 13 2009, 01:04 PM']I am the guy that told you what the Church authorities now teach about the SSPX, and how they are not in Schism. The Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei has stated multiply times the SSPX are not in schism. Archbishop Lefebvre is the one that committed the schism act. The Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei which represents the Pope (Both John Paul II and Benedict XVI) has quite explicitly stated the SSPX is not in schism. So we can believe your interpretation of Ecclesia Dei, or we can believe the Church's interpretation.[/quote]
Sorry, but as I told you before it wasn't just Lefebvre who was excommunicated. "Ecclesia Dei" again :
"3. In itself, this act was one of disobedience to the Roman Pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the church, such as is the ordination of bishops whereby the apostolic succession is sacramentally perpetuated. Hence such disobedience - which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy - constitutes a schismatic act.(3) In performing such an act, notwithstanding the formal canonical warning sent to them by the Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops on 17 June last, Mons. Lefebvre and the priests Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta, have incurred the grave penalty of excommunication envisaged by ecclesiastical law.(4)
See: [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...sia-dei_en.html[/url]
As I told you before a motu proprio of the Supreme Pontiff outweighs offhand remarks of anyone else.

Just for extra fun:

" "Dominus Marcellus Lefebvre"
From the Office of
the Congregation for Bishops
1 July 1988

Monsignor Marcel Lefebvre, Archbishop-Bishop Emeritus of Tulle, notwithstanding the formal canonical warning of 17 June last and the repeated appeals to desist from his intention, has performed a schismatical act by the episcopal consecration of four priests, without pontifical mandate and contrary to the will of the Supreme Pontiff, and has therefore incurred the penalty envisaged by Canon 1364, paragraph 1, and canon 1382 of the Code of Canon Law.

Having taken account of all the juridical effects, I declare that the above mentioned Monsignor Marcel Lefebvre, and Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta have incurred ipso facto excommunication latae sententiae reserved to the Apostolic See.

Moreover, I declare that Monsignor Antonio de Castro Mayer, Bishop emeritus of Campos, since he took part directly in the liturgical celebration as co-consecrator and adhered publicly to the schismatical act, has incurred excommunication latae sententiae as envisaged by canon 1364, paragraph 1.

The priests and faithful are warned not to support the schism of Monsignor Lefebvre, [b]otherwise they shall incur ipso facto the very grave penalty of excommunication.[/b]

From the Office of the Congregation for Bishops, 1 July 1988.
+ BERNARDINUS Card. GANTIN
Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops

[KnightofChrist]

Again we can believe your interpenetration or the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei's interpenetration of the status of the SSPX. I choose the Church's, I reject yours.

Guessing you still can not provide the proof I requested?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1948016' date='Aug 13 2009, 11:21 AM']Guessing you still can not provide the proof I requested?[/quote]

dramatically changing the subject suggests no.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1948016' date='Aug 13 2009, 01:21 PM']Again we can believe your interpenetration or the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei's interpenetration of the status of the SSPX. I choose the Church's, I reject yours.

Guessing you still can not provide the proof I requested?[/quote]

The "Ecclesia Dei" commission has never issued a formal document on the subject to my knowledge. What you rely on are merely remarks of Cardinal Hoyos which have no theological status, and as I will show (AGAIN) have been inconsistent on the issue. And it is obviously not my interpretation but that of John Paul II, and in a motu proprio no less. The original thread is here: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=95645&pid=1920228&st=140&#entry1920228"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...p;#entry1920228[/url]

By the way the word is "interpretation" not "interpenetration" that suggests something quite else!
Hoyos remarks on the subject last Fall do not support your position. He advised the Lefebvrites he would no longer be able to refer to them as anything but "schismatics". This is reported by Bishop Fellay himself.
See: [url="http://www.summorumpontificum.net/2008/09/concerning-ultimatum-from-cardinal.html"]http://www.summorumpontificum.net/2008/09/...m-cardinal.html[/url]

Bishop Fellay himself also described Hoyos as inconsistent: " I also told him that when he speaks with the SSPX he carefully avoids the word "schismatic." But when he writes bishops he says that we are in schism."
See: [url="http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/2002Jan/jan23ecc.htm#ecc-1"]http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/2002Jan...23ecc.htm#ecc-1[/url]

In Hoyos most recent remarks on the subject on February 10, 2009 he again referred to a "schism".
See: [url="http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15040"]http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15040[/url]

All of these links I have provided before and yet you still insist that "only Lefebvre" committed a schismatic act! That of course is quite absurd given the plain language of John Paul II, Bishop Gantin's decree. Even when proven wrong TWICE, you persist in the same way.
This is why I can't be bothered showing you any links on Williamson.


S.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Skinzo

[Skinzo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1948004' date='Aug 13 2009, 01:07 PM']PS. if you can't be bothered with proving your claims, you shouldn't bother making them.[/quote]
Please provide any links to official Church documents which state the SSPX is not in schism. As to Williamson:
""I believe that the historical evidence ... is hugely against 6 million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler"

See: [url="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,482425,00.html"]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,482425,00.html[/url]

S.