VeniteAdoremus Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 This entire subject is probably void for English (or Latin) speakers, but I want to talk about it anyway. I spent the last two weeks (more importantly, Sundays) with my mum in France, and attended Mass in the parish there - so, in French. And there was something weird about that that I couldn't quite put my finger on until I really looked at my missal. French, German, Dutch, and a bunch of other languages still have both a formal and an informal second-person pronoun, like English used to. French has "vous" for formal and "tu" for informal, German has "Sie" and "du", and Dutch "u"* and "jij/je". Since I'm a bit of a traditionalist I call most people I'm not familiar with "u", as well as most people above me in rank (priests, etc.). It's also a Dutch tradition to address God as "u", and as far as I can tell has been since the time that word was introduced. French and Germans, however, use "tu" and "du" - the [i]informal[/i] pronouns. And that while in society, the formal pronoun has much wider usage than the informal (don't even think of calling someone "du" in Germany without permission)! So I wondered - is this a Dutch thing? Is it us being stuck-up almost-Calvinists who don't have a personal bond with God? I think I do... but it just feels [i]so weird[/i] to call Him "je". Sometimes I use it for Jesus, but never for the Father, in any case. What would you do - formal or informal? *indeed. It's not pronounced like "you" btw - I don't think the Dutch u-sound exists in English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Interesting. If I were speaking German, I'd definitely be tempted to say "Sie", not "du". I hadn't really paid attention to which pronoun was used in my German Bible, though (haven't looked at that one in a long time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 I have a friend who told me once that she refers to God as "sir" when she prays. And that kind of bothered me... that she wouldn't feel as though she had a personal relationship with him... But, I feel as though this is a little different. Granted, I don't exactly speak another language, so what I have to say really could mean nothing at all... Anyways, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to use the formal "you" when speaking to God... If I remember correctly from my spanish classes, it's fairly typical to refer to anyone who is older than you or in a respected position with the formal. It's not necessarily a "distance" creating use of language. I think my spanish teacher said that she even spoke to her parents and grandparents with the formal... soooo.... I can see that being perfectly fine to use in reference to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puellapaschalis Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 In French the Ave Maria begins something "Je [i]vous[/i] salue, Marie..." The Dutch u-sound is the rounded u vowel that's also found in French. Not present in English. Pout your lips and then say "eee". In Tagalog the formal pronoun [i]po[/i] is used when talking to God, I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 I'll jump in in lieu of M. Resurrexi here. English also has formal and informal forms, with those forms being formal = you, informal = thou. However, the informal over time evolved into being so informal/intimate that it fell out of use (at one point, thou was used only for speaking with one's beloved and with God. Certainly, we all know The Lord's Prayer: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be [b]thy[/b]name, [i]thy[/i] Kingdom come, [i]thy[/i] will...for[i] thine[/i] is the Kingdom...and so on. Thy and thine are the possesive forms of Thou. Also think "Be [i]thou [/i]my vision,", and other things along this line. So, I guess your answer is, English falls in line with French and German. The Dutch must be, as usual, the oddballs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1941268' date='Aug 5 2009, 02:46 PM']This entire subject is probably void for English (or Latin) speakers, but I want to talk about it anyway. I spent the last two weeks (more importantly, Sundays) with my mum in France, and attended Mass in the parish there - so, in French. And there was something weird about that that I couldn't quite put my finger on until I really looked at my missal. French, German, Dutch, and a bunch of other languages still have both a formal and an informal second-person pronoun, like English used to. French has "vous" for formal and "tu" for informal, German has "Sie" and "du", and Dutch "u"* and "jij/je". Since I'm a bit of a traditionalist I call most people I'm not familiar with "u", as well as most people above me in rank (priests, etc.). It's also a Dutch tradition to address God as "u", and as far as I can tell has been since the time that word was introduced. French and Germans, however, use "tu" and "du" - the [i]informal[/i] pronouns. And that while in society, the formal pronoun has much wider usage than the informal (don't even think of calling someone "du" in Germany without permission)! So I wondered - is this a Dutch thing? Is it us being stuck-up almost-Calvinists who don't have a personal bond with God? I think I do... but it just feels [i]so weird[/i] to call Him "je". Sometimes I use it for Jesus, but never for the Father, in any case. What would you do - formal or informal? *indeed. It's not pronounced like "you" btw - I don't think the Dutch u-sound exists in English.[/quote] In English, [i]Thou[/i]/[i]Thee[/i]/[i]Thy[/i] was originally the only second person singular pronoun. There was no distinction between informal second person pronouns and formal second person pronouns. When the people addressed God in English, they would use the second person singular pronoun to refer to Him. As English developed, the second person plural pronoun, [i]ye[/i]/[i]you[/i]/[i]your[/i] began to function as the formal second person singular pronoun as well. This did not effect the second person pronoun used in prayer, however, since the language used for prayer does not usually change as easily as the language used for profane (i.e. secular) purposes. Thus, the people continued to use the pronoun [i]Thou[/i]/[i]Thee[/i]/[i]Thy[/i] when addressing God since that was what previous generations had used. Perhaps the formal second person singular pronoun in Dutch is used because it was not originally a second person plural pronoun. I have no idea what the etymology of the Dutch formal second person singular pronoun is, though. Edited August 5, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 I just checked the order of the mass in spanish, and it appears they tend to use the informal to refer to God (tu versus Ud.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniteAdoremus Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1941280' date='Aug 5 2009, 11:08 PM']In English, [i]Thou[/i]/[i]Thee[/i]/[i]Thy[/i] was originally the only second person singular pronoun. There was no distinction between informal second person pronouns and formal second person pronouns. When the people addressed God in English, they would use the second person singular pronoun to refer to Him. As English developed, the second person plural pronoun, [i]ye[/i]/[i]you[/i]/[i]your[/i] began to function as the formal second person singular pronoun as well. This did not effect the second person pronoun used in prayer, however, since the language used for prayer does not usually change as easily as the language used for profane (i.e. secular) purposes. Thus, the people continued to use the pronoun [i]Thou[/i]/[i]Thee[/i]/[i]Thy[/i] when addressing God since that was what previous generations had used. Perhaps the formal second person singular pronoun in Dutch is used because it was not originally a second person plural pronoun. I have no idea what the etymology of the Dutch formal second person singular pronoun is, though.[/quote] Oh, that explains all the "Thee"s flying around in the Anglican(ish) choir I sing in I love this, by the way. And good point on the prayer language changing more slowly than the normal language. I looked the Dutch version up, because I wasn't sure, but apparently this is what happened: we used to have "du" and "ghie" (very similar to the German versions) until around 1500, but from 1400 or so onwards people started using "ghie"/"gij" more and more - so we moved to the more formal side Dutch people! Anyway, then they wanted a new even more formal pronoun, and slowly "u" developed in that place. By the way, "gij" is still used for God, especially by the Dutch version of "King James"-protestants... so it's more or less analogue to "thee". [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1941325' date='Aug 6 2009, 12:30 AM']I just checked the order of the mass in spanish, and it appears they tend to use the informal to refer to God (tu versus Ud.)[/quote] Oh thanks! I'm starting to think maybe it is because we have this compulsion to do everything different from the way all other people do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zunshynn Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 I don't know... I think in French it really is a serious sign of disrespect to use Tu for anyone you're not related to. My French teacher told us tu isn't even used for your closest friends. She actually said it the equivalent of referring to someone with a curse word. (That might be somewhat of an exaggeration, she could be a little dramatic.) But the impression I got was that the difference between Tu and Vous is totally different than the difference between the English You and Thou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 [quote name='zunshynn' post='1941336' date='Aug 5 2009, 04:02 PM']I don't know... I think in French it really is a serious sign of disrespect to use Tu for anyone you're not related to. My French teacher told us tu isn't even used for your closest friends. She actually said it the equivalent of referring to someone with a curse word. (That might be somewhat of an exaggeration, she could be a little dramatic.) But the impression I got was that the difference between Tu and Vous is totally different than the difference between the English You and Thou.[/quote] In spanish, it's usually seen as disrespectful to use "tu" with anyone you are not familiar with. "Ud." is the formal, it's used with anyone you don't know or people you wish to show respect to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniteAdoremus Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 Hum, it depends on your age, I think... older people will call each other vous no matter what, but my cousins use tu with their friends (they're student age). And most non-elderly people will slip into "tu" at some stage if they become friends. But you're right that using it for an adult stranger is highly disrespectful... so what does that mean? God is like a family member for the French? (By the way, they do use "vous" in the Our Father, and for Mary as well.) And what would you use if English had the option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 [quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1941348' date='Aug 5 2009, 04:31 PM']Hum, it depends on your age, I think... older people will call each other vous no matter what, but my cousins use tu with their friends (they're student age). And most non-elderly people will slip into "tu" at some stage if they become friends. But you're right that using it for an adult stranger is highly disrespectful... so what does that mean? God is like a family member for the French? (By the way, they do use "vous" in the Our Father, and for Mary as well.) And what would you use if English had the option?[/quote] I don't think it really matters when you're referring to God because it really depends on which aspect you are wanting to emphasize. Speaking informally, you are expressing the aspect of God's lovingness and your familiarity with him as your God. The formal is expressing the great awe for an all powerful being and your infinite inadequacy. I think either is equally acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 [quote name='zunshynn' post='1941336' date='Aug 5 2009, 05:02 PM']I don't know... I think in French it really is a serious sign of disrespect to use Tu for anyone you're not related to. My French teacher told us tu isn't even used for your closest friends. She actually said it the equivalent of referring to someone with a curse word. (That might be somewhat of an exaggeration, she could be a little dramatic.) But the impression I got was that the difference between Tu and Vous is totally different than the difference between the English You and Thou.[/quote] What part of the world is your teacher from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zunshynn Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1941387' date='Aug 5 2009, 05:27 PM']What part of the world is your teacher from?[/quote] She's actually Swiss, but like I said, she's a little eccentric. She could have been exaggerating somewhat. We're talking about a lady who swore all the time in class. But she did seem serious when she said we should never refer to someone with tu unless they were family, or a classmate our age or younger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Don't we also call Him Abba? That means "Daddy", if I am correct. Sounds informal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now