Introduction And Question

[prosauce]

I'm new to the forum and wanted to formally introduce myself. This looks like a great forum! I had a few questions regarding Roman Catholicism and being catholic.

My father is a roman catholic and my mom a Methodist. I was raised in a non-denominational church as a compromise, but due to the lack of theological intellectual depth in the church--I fell away from the Christianity when I got to High School. Anyway, long story short, I've decided to make a return to Christianity and love roman Catholicism (I'm in law school now). However, I started reading into eastern orthodoxy and a lot of it sounds appealing.

1. Can I believe in the doctrine of theosis and still be a roman catholic? I tend to reject the legalistic view on atonement and adopt a more orthodox view.

2. How far to I have to be lock and step with the Roman Catholic church in order to be initiated into the sacraments?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='prosauce' post='1944956' date='Aug 9 2009, 11:04 PM']1. Can I believe in the doctrine of theosis and still be a roman catholic? I tend to reject the legalistic view on atonement and adopt a more orthodox view.[/quote]

First of all, welcome to Phatmass!

Theosis is taught by the Catholic Church (though the Catholic understanding of theosis is probably different than what the Eastern Orthodox Churches believe):

'The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature": "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God." "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."' ([i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i], no. 460)

'The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.' ([i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i], no. 1129)

"The human virtues are rooted in the theological virtues, which adapt man's faculties for participation in the divine nature: for the theological virtues relate directly to God. They dispose Christians to live in a relationship with the Holy Trinity. They have the One and Triune God for their origin, motive, and object." ([i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i], no. 1812)

"Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself: God gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized." ([i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i], no. 1988)

"The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism." (([i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i], no. 1999)




[quote name='prosauce' post='1944956' date='Aug 9 2009, 11:04 PM']2. How far to I have to be lock and step with the Roman Catholic church in order to be initiated into the sacraments?[/quote]

The following is the profession of faith you will make when you are received into the Catholic Church:

"I, N., with firm faith believe and profess everything that is contained in the Symbol of faith, namely:

[The Nicene Creed here said. I have omitted it so as not to make my post unnecessarily lengthy)

"With firm faith, I also believe everything contained in the Word of God, whether written or handed down in Tradition, which the Church, either by a solemn judgement or by the ordinary and universal Magisterium, sets forth to be believed as divinely revealed.

"I also firmly accept and hold each and everything definitively proposed by the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals.

"Moreover, I adhere with religious submission of will and intellect to the teachings which either the Roman pontiff or the College of Bishops enunciate when they exercise their authentic Magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim these teachings by a definitive act."


To understand better to what teachings you will be giving your assent when you make this profession, I would suggest that you read [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFADTU.HTM"]this document[/url] of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

You will be in my prayers!

Edited August 10, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Resurrexi]

This article by Stephen Todd Kaster might help you as well:

The Doctrine of Theosis
Incarnation and Divinization

In the Eastern Catholic tradition, which is also reflected in certain paragraphs of the Catechism of the Catholic Church issued in 1992, the doctrine of salvation is called theosis, and it centers on the deification of man by grace. [cf., Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 460, 1129, 1265, 1812, 1988, 1999] This doctrine is fundamental to the teaching of the Church Fathers, who held that "God became man, so that man might become God." [St. Augustine, Sermo 13 de Tempore, from The Office of Readings, page 125, (Boston: St. Paul Editions, 1983)] Thus, the whole point of the incarnation of God is the deification of man.

As I indicated above, this teaching is reflected in the Catechism in several places, most especially in paragraph 1988 which reads as follows: "Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in His Resurrection by being born to new life; we are members of His Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the Vine which is Himself: '[God] gave Himself to us through His Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.'" [Catechism of the Catholic Church, no 1988] Deification by grace, i.e., becoming sons of God in the Only Begotten Son of God, is the whole point of the incarnation, life, passion, death, resurrection and ascension of our Lord.

Thus Mary, as the exemplar of the Church, having been assumed body and soul into Heaven, has experienced theosis and has been divinized by grace, and so she has been conformed perfectly to the likeness of her Divine Son, as one day all those who are saved shall be. This does not involve the destruction of her humanity, for she remains fully human, but she has been truly divinized by the grace of Almighty God.

This doctrine must not be thought of in a "Mormon" way, as if men become little gods with their own planets, but must be understood as a true deification of man and as an intimate communion of man with God in Christ. It must never be reduced to a mere metaphor, because by his incorporation into Christ, man is really made a partaker of the divine nature. [cf., 2nd Peter 1:4] This does not involve a change in man's essence, but entails an indwelling of God's Spirit within the human person, enlivening both body and soul to everlasting life. There is an analogy between the incarnation and deification, which is most clearly indicated in the prayer of the priest during the offertory at Mass when he mixes the water with the wine and says, "By the mystery of this water and wine, may we come to share in the divinity of Christ, who humbled Himself to share in our humanity." [The Sacramentary, (New York: Catholic Book Publishing Co., 1985), page 370.]

I will end with an extended quotation from the Pope's Apostolic Letter Novo Millennio Ineunte in which he speaks of this powerful mystery: "Jesus is the new man (cf. Eph 4:24; Col 3:10) who calls redeemed humanity to share in His divine life. The mystery of the Incarnation lays the foundations for an anthropology which, reaching beyond its own limitations and contradictions, moves towards God Himself, indeed towards the goal of divinization. This occurs through the grafting of the redeemed on to Christ and their admission into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life. The Fathers have laid great stress on this soteriological dimension of the mystery of the Incarnation: it is only because the Son of God truly became man that man, in him and through him, can truly become a son of God." [Pope John Paul II, Novo Millennio Ineunte, no. 23] The process of deification does not involve the destruction of the distinction between God as the Creator and man as the created, for this distinction always remains, but by grace man is truly elevated into the very life and energy of the Trinity.

[eagle_eye222001]

To summarize an answer to question two, because we believe the Catholic Church to be the Church started by Jesus Christ, and because we believe that Jesus gave the leaders of this Church a Teaching Authority, it doesn't make sense to only believe in some of the beliefs of the Church and reject others.

Now, that doesn't mean you should blindly accept everything the Church teaches. It does mean that if we are at odds with some part of Catholic teaching, we need to study why the Church teaches what it does and look at why we think what we think.

If you struggle with some part of Catholic teaching, don't worry as your not the first person to experience that. Many people on this site have struggled with some part of Catholic teaching and through prayer and study have come to a resolution.

If there is some sort of Catholic teaching you have questions about or disagree with, feel free to post those questions and several of us will try to help you out.

Again, welcome.

----------------
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[Marie-Therese]

Welcome!!

I am a convert from the Southern Baptist faith, so I understand a lot of what you are going through. There are many valuable resources here at Phatmass...many learned and knowledgeable people who can give you information on everything from soup to nuts. There are also many people who would love to give you their prayers.

I can only tell you that if you are serious about learning about the Catholic faith, this is a great place to be. Make sure that you ask the Lord Jesus to grant you the grace to have understanding, and apply yourself with an open mind to study the Catholic position. God will give you exactly what you need.

Oh, btw, you're going to run across some of our crazy locals. Don't worry. We're all just one big happy (occasionally nutty) family here! We like to laugh an awful lot.

May the grace of the Lord be with you on your journey!

[dairygirl4u2c]

my understanding is that one doesn't have to believe in legal atonement to be catholic, as it's never been taught.

i could get into many interesting conversations about the level of teaching it is, though, per magisterium etc.

i'm glad im not the only one who sees so many potential problems with the legal ideas.
most people just blindly accept it, if they know anything about it. most don't know anything about it, and don't know what they're saying or thinking when discussing this stuff in superficial passing as a regular catholic.

orthodox believe contral legal atonement though.

i'm big into the orthodox church, too.
don't talk to me, as opposed to a catholic, or i might try converting you to orthodox...

Edited August 10, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[Archaeology cat]

Welcome. And remember, there are Eastern Rites in the Catholic Church, too. You might want to speak with Apotheoun, as he is an Eastern Catholic.

[prosauce]

Thank you for the warm replies. Resurrexi, thanks for the information! Much appreciated!

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1945078' date='Aug 9 2009, 11:07 PM']my understanding is that one doesn't have to believe in legal atonement to be catholic, as it's never been taught.

i could get into many interesting conversations about the level of teaching it is, though, per magisterium etc.

i'm glad im not the only one who sees so many potential problems with the legal ideas.
most people just blindly accept it, if they know anything about it. most don't know anything about it, and don't know what they're saying or thinking when discussing this stuff in superficial passing as a regular catholic.

orthodox believe contral legal atonement though.

i'm big into the orthodox church, too.
don't talk to me, as opposed to a catholic, or i might try converting you to orthodox...[/quote]

I'm not sure what you mean that orthodox believe in "contral legal atonement"? My understanding is that the point of Christ was to conquer death that came into being after The Fall, and therefore reunite mankind with the divine. Hence the reason Jesus has both the nature of man and the nature of God in a hypostasis state. It seems that the whole point of christianity under the orthodox lens is theosis itself.

I'm a huge theological fan of the orthodox church, but I'm also a pragmatic believer. The office of The Pope (ever since I was a little kid) has shown leadership that the christian world so desperately needs. Especially here in the states, I see the catholic church representing the beauty of the Church that we find in the gospels and the history of the early christian communities.

I'm pretty sure we can find theological problems in any religious institution if we scrutinize and analyze the teachings for long enough. However, in the West, Roman Catholicism is the brightest light of righteousness we have for the followers of Christ.

The question comes down to whether the Roman Catholic church will admit me even though I personally dissent with them on some issues.

[Nihil Obstat]

Which issues might those be? Theological, or moral?

[dairygirl4u2c]

it wasn't suppose to say "contral" it was suppose to say "contra". i was just saying the orthodox pretty much don't believe in legal atonement.

i do know though, that the legal atonment theory has merit, strong merit. it's a throrough system, when one tries to poke holes into it. (and also helps explain suffering etc, which is another post and time, but) i just don't like it at its most fundamental level, i don't see how these technicalties could mean anything.
i like your ideas better, 'christius victor" and jesus conquering death. but i'm not sure it is described very well. why did he have to be cruicified? i guess it makes for a compelling love story. how does he unite people with God by his death? i get the imagery of him becoming spirit, and sending the paraclete, and going to where the aimlessly wandering souls are, but who aren't damned-- both things requiring that he have died.
and i'm not sure why hewould need to be divine, other than perhaps that's the only way he'd resurrect.
maybe it's still foreign to me, even though i do like hte christus vicor model better.

i can also relate to your beliefs, given you would be open to be catholic but aren't sure if they'd accept you.
if idissent on definitive teaching, they wouldn't accept you. de fide, infallible, etc, that sort of stuff.
if that's what you meant, you want in desite dissenting on supposed infallible teaching, i'm still sympathetic, cause i could see, just as the orthodox could be forced to see, that the pope as the head is still the best possible situation, even if he's not infallible etc.
see, i've seen many orthodox admit that it'd be a more compelte church if the roman pope became head again-- they just don't want the roman pope as head given his ideas on infallibility, and at least on being the last word etc. cue what caused the split, that sort of stuff.

Edited August 10, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
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God bless you!

[prosauce]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1945251' date='Aug 10 2009, 02:00 AM']Which issues might those be? Theological, or moral?[/quote]

Only theological problems. I think the catholic church is a great moral model for everyone to follow.

Here is a short summary of the theological beliefs that I have that differs from the Roman Catholic Church:

[quote]Following the holy Fathers, Orthodoxy teaches that Christ, on the Cross, gave "His life a ransom for many" (Matt. 20:28). "For even the Son of man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45). The "ransom" is paid to the grave. As the Lord revealed to the Prophet Hosea (Hosea 13:14), "I will ransom them (us) from the power of the grave, I will redeem them from death." In a sense, He pays the ransom to the devil who has the keeper of the grave and holds the power of death (Heb. 2:14).

The man Christ voluntarily gave Himself on the Cross. He died for all ("a ransom for many" or "the many"). But He rose from the dead in His crucified body. Death had no power to hold Him. It has no power over anyone. The human race is redeemed from the grave, from the devil. Free of the devil is to be free of death and sin. To be free of these, we become like God (deification) and may live with Him forever.[/quote]

and

[quote]Following the Holy Fathers, the Orthodox Church holds that when Adam sinned against God, he introduced death to the world (not original sin). Since all men are born of the same human stock as Adam, all men inherit death. Death means that the life of every human being comes to an end (mortality); but also that death generates in us the passions (anger, hate, lust, greed, etc.), disease and aging.[/quote]

I really want to be part of the Roman Catholic Church because I realize that at my age I need to decide on an institution to give my life to in the form of time and resources. After coming back from Palestine, I realized that life is far too short and I don't want to die knowing I wasn't part of something greater than myself. The Roman Catholic Church is an institution worth all time and resources in my mind.

Thanks again for all the kind responses!

~Prosauce

[prosauce]

More clarification on my belief concerning original sin:

[quote]The Orthodox Church holds an anthropology different from that of the Catholic Church. This is because the Orthodox Church does not hold a forensic view of Original Sin, that is, they hold that the sin of Adam did not transmit an intrinsic, “guilt” to his descendants. “Ancestral Sin,” as they would call it, transmitted what may be termed as a “genetic predisposition” to sin, but not a juridical declaration from God that such-a-one is “born in sin.” Hyper-Augustinianism, Catholic, Lutheran, and Reformed, is impossible in Orthodox anthropology because according to the Orthodox, man is still essentially good, despite his propensity to sin.[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

'propensity to sin', i've heard that before, and liked it also. it's powerful.
i've even called it one of the many reasons i like the orthodox church.

it must be pretty powerful for you, if you would consider not becoming catholic because of it.
i do know that it's taught in the roman church predominantly, but like we said, i don't know if it's definitive.

i'd consider the orthodox church more. that's just me, though.
it's just ironic that you'd make a condition on joining the CC before giving yourself over to its authority, unconditionally.

[dairygirl4u2c]

"i do know that it's [legal atonement] taught in the roman church predominantly, but like we said, i don't know if it's definitive. "