Francisco Franco

[CatherineM]

My Godfather ended up in the US because of Franco, so I guess that was a positive for me. I'm sure his family would have preferred to stay in Spain though.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1948425' date='Aug 13 2009, 10:16 PM']1. Well, given that the reign of Francisco Franco was not technically a "theocracy", I apologize for my misuse of the word and will refrain from using it again. I'll instead refer to the establishment of a state religion, that being Catholicism.[/quote]

And you think that at this point in history that this shouldn't be the case in a Catholic majority nation?

The 77th error condemned in Pope Pius IX's Syllabus of Errors is the proposition that:

“In this age of ours it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be the only religion of the state, to the exclusion of all other cults whatsoever.”



[quote]2. Speaking of a government format in which Catholicism would be protected, I thought there was a Republican Democracy somewhere around here...[/quote]

The US doesn't have a Catholic majority so there's no point in comparing or relating it somehow to this discussion.


[quote]3. Well, since I don't know a ton about his policies,[/quote]

This is a first red flag. Don't you think it would be slightly important to know what the man did in order to have such a strong opinion of him?

[quote]though I do know that many died under his regime, I'll start with that. Any despot wouldn't kill his own subjects. A tyrant who wanted to keep his power and used violent force to do so, in my opinion, would be a tyrant.[/quote]

This is your strongest possible argument and I think I know where its going, but you need to provide the stats that you are referring to. I have a feeling they aren't as cut and dry as you think.

[quote]Also, anyone who denies equal protection under the law of the land to non-members of the state religion I would also consider tyrannical.[/quote]

Well he was from an age in which this wasn't yet the policy of the Catholic Church. He was simply following the Church's laws in this regard. Was the Catholic Church of the 50's and before to be considered a tyranny of religion?

[Norseman82]

Is STILL dead!!!

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1948431' date='Aug 13 2009, 11:30 PM']My Godfather ended up in the US because of Franco, so I guess that was a positive for me. I'm sure his family would have preferred to stay in Spain though.[/quote]

Why would they have preferred to stay in Spain?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1948439' date='Aug 13 2009, 10:39 PM']Why would they have preferred to stay in Spain? [/quote]

They probably wanted to live in a country where Catholicism was the state religion.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1948439' date='Aug 13 2009, 10:39 PM']Why would they have preferred to stay in Spain? [/quote]

I've heard quite a few testimonies of people who were very happy and supportive of Franco while they were living there during this time. I'll pull up a few if you wish. Again, revisionist history ignores much of this reality.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1948434' date='Aug 13 2009, 11:36 PM']And you think that at this point in history that this shouldn't be the case in a Catholic majority nation?

The 77th error condemned in Pope Pius IX's Syllabus of Errors is the proposition that:

“In this age of ours it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be the only religion of the state, to the exclusion of all other cults whatsoever.”[/quote]

Sorry, I'm not sure where you're going with this.


[quote]The US doesn't have a Catholic majority so there's no point in comparing or relating it somehow to this discussion.[/quote]

Why would the US need a Catholic majority to be relevant to the discussion. I'm saying that the country in which we are able to go to websites like this and have open discussions about controversial topics is an amazing country and a great alternative to having your rights abridged in a dictatorship in which your life is in the hands of one man.


[quote]This is a first red flag. Don't you think it would be slightly important to know what the man did in order to have such a strong opinion of him?[/quote]

I don't have a strong opinion of him. I'm arguing mainly against the idea that anyone who is a dictator who established Catholicism as the official state religion should be looked up to simply because he established Catholicism as the official state religion. Francisco Franco along with any other dictator in my book can't be trusted and I don't think that system of government in itself is a good idea.

[quote]This is your strongest possible argument and I think I know where its going, but you need to provide the stats that you are referring to. I have a feeling they aren't as cut and dry as you think.[/quote]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's not going in the direction in which you think it's going. I don't really think that stats matter. Any dictator, a man who steals power for himself, who spills the blood of his subjects to keep his power is a tyrant.


[quote]Well he was from an age in which this wasn't yet the policy of the Catholic Church. He was simply following the Church's laws in this regard. Was the Catholic Church of the 50's and before to be considered a tyranny of religion?[/quote]

You say this as if nothing is quite true until the Church says it is. The Church is outspoken in its position of religious freedom today. Does it just put a knife through your chest to admit that the Church was wrong about a man that you admire?

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1948441' date='Aug 13 2009, 11:43 PM']They probably wanted to live in a country where Catholicism was the state religion.

[/quote]

That still doesn't answer the question of why he ended up in the US [i]because[/i] of Franco. If they wanted to stay because Catholicism was the state religion, then why leave becasue of the man who made it so?

[CatherineM]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1948439' date='Aug 13 2009, 10:39 PM']Why would they have preferred to stay in Spain? [/quote]

They lost their land and had to flee. They went from Spain to Cuba to Mexico then Texas.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1948452' date='Aug 14 2009, 12:02 AM']They lost their land and had to flee. They went from Spain to Cuba to Mexico then Texas.[/quote]

Really now? If you don't mind my asking, do you know how they lost their land? And why did they have to flee for losing their land. Most people would simply live as servants to another land-owner on their land, would they not? Or wouldn't they? I'm just curious as to why they would HAVE to leave Spain as, it seems, refugees.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1948444' date='Aug 13 2009, 10:51 PM']Sorry, I'm not sure where you're going with this. [/quote]

Then you're argument truly makes no sense to me.



[quote]Why would the US need a Catholic majority to be relevant to the discussion. I'm saying that the country in which we are able to go to websites like this and have open discussions about controversial topics is an amazing country and a great alternative to having your rights abridged in a dictatorship in which your life is in the hands of one man.[/quote]

Yes, America is an amazing country and I'm happy to live here. So what?



[quote]I don't have a strong opinion of him. I'm arguing mainly against the idea that anyone who is a dictator who established Catholicism as the official state religion should be looked up to simply because he established Catholicism as the official state religion. Francisco Franco along with any other dictator in my book can't be trusted and I don't think that system of government in itself is a good idea.[/quote]

If you think that's all I believe he did, then you really are looking at this way too simplistically and I'll probably just need to drop out of this discussion as I don't have time to go through all this simple easy stuff.


[quote]Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's not going in the direction in which you think it's going. I don't really think that stats matter. Any dictator, a man who steals power for himself, who spills the blood of his subjects to keep his power is a tyrant.[/quote]

You don't think the stats matter, and yet you make the claim that he spills all this blood? So you're okay with making a claim and not backing it up? Sorry, don't have time for that.



[quote]You say this as if nothing is quite true until the Church says it is. The Church is outspoken in its position of religious freedom today.[/quote]

No. Are you really missing such a simple thing?

[quote]Does it just put a knife through your chest to admit that the Church was wrong about a man that you admire?[/quote]

I couldn't care less what the Vatican today has to say. And obviously you aren't interested in an actual educated discussion. Maybe I'll try this here again someday. peace

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1948481' date='Aug 13 2009, 11:20 PM']Yes, America is an amazing country and I'm happy to live here. So what?[/quote]

I was explaining my point for bringing up America in the discussion. I was wondering why it mattered whether or not America had a Catholic majority or not.


[quote]If you think that's all I believe he did, then you really are looking at this way too simplistically and I'll probably just need to drop out of this discussion as I don't have time to go through all this simple easy stuff.[/quote]

Okay, mind telling me what he did that was so great?


[quote]You don't think the stats matter, and yet you make the claim that he spills all this blood? So you're okay with making a claim and not backing it up? Sorry, don't have time for that.[/quote]

"All this blood"? I made no such claim. I know that he spilled blood, I don't care how much he spilled. If he did it to one person simply because they defied his supreme dictatorship after he stole power for himself, then he's a tyrant.

[quote]I couldn't care less what the Vatican today has to say. And obviously you aren't interested in an actual educated discussion. Maybe I'll try this here again someday. peace[/quote]

Oh, how could I forget? Technically, you're not even Catholic!

[CatherineM]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1948462' date='Aug 13 2009, 11:09 PM']Really now? If you don't mind my asking, do you know how they lost their land? And why did they have to flee for losing their land. Most people would simply live as servants to another land-owner on their land, would they not? Or wouldn't they? I'm just curious as to why they would HAVE to leave Spain as, it seems, refugees.[/quote]

He didn't like talking about it much, but he was just a teenager, and his dad was jailed for being accused of being a Republican, and his mom and siblings were going to forced labor, but were able to escape. They lost their land because they couldn't exactly take it with them, and they left with just the clothes on their backs. So I guess you could say that they didn't lose their land, but rather abandoned it in fear for their lives. His dad was executed eventually.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1948491' date='Aug 13 2009, 11:34 PM']I was explaining my point for bringing up America in the discussion. I was wondering why it mattered whether or not America had a Catholic majority or not.[/quote]

Because my point was, at the time of Franco the Catholic Church supported the enforcement of Catholicism as the state religion (and suppression of non-Catholic religions) in nations where there was a Catholic majority. Since Spain at this time had a Catholic majority, my argument is that Franco was well within the limits of Catholic teaching to promote Catholicism as the state religion and to suppress the public practice of non-Catholic faiths.

As America does not have a Catholic majority nor is it led by a Catholic government the same policy does not apply.



[quote]Okay, mind telling me what he did that was so great? [/quote]

He wasn't perfect, but sure we can get into that soon. I would appreciate it if you would follow up on your contention of him being a tyrant and essentially a murderer.


[quote]"All this blood"? I made no such claim. I know that he spilled blood, I don't care how much he spilled. If he did it to one person simply because they defied his supreme dictatorship after he stole power for himself, then he's a tyrant.[/quote]

So then, back up your claim that he "stole" power illegally and that he murdered anyone without just cause.


[quote]Oh, how could I forget? Technically, you're not even Catholic! [/quote]

oh shocker and completely relevant after all moving on...

[Nihil Obstat]

Goldenchild, before you mentioned that a lot of the negative things said about Franco are unfair and exaggerated. Can you give a short list that goes over your counterarguments?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1948515' date='Aug 13 2009, 11:52 PM']Goldenchild, before you mentioned that a lot of the negative things said about Franco are unfair and exaggerated. Can you give a short list that goes over your counterarguments?[/quote]

That would probably be the noble thing for me to do However I will admit that I haven't put such a list together (and honestly would probably be longer than a short list). So for now I'll just say that am much more adept (due to some ADD tendencies) at handling one or two examples/arguments at a time and going from there.

I am interested in writing more in depth about Franco someday and will probably have such a list made at some point, maybe for a book outline, but haven't gotten around to it and with the new semester starting monday probably won't be able to very soon.

Undoubtedly there are many arguments leveled against Franco, such as the numbers of people he allegedly oversaw the murder of, or his alleged alliance with Hitler, etc. etc. If there are any you are particularly interested in I will do what I can to address it.

So far the only substantiated argument against him is that he was a tyrant because he enforced Catholicism as the official state religion. I countered showing that this was not against Catholic teaching at this time. That is where we are at thusfar, I'm open to continuing that line of reasoning if there are objections.

Edited August 14, 2009 by goldenchild17

[Nihil Obstat]

I'm actually interested in anything you have to say regarding defence of Franco. I said short list because I figured it would be easier, but if you want to go in depth on one aspect, then I'd be just as thrilled to read it.
Anything that you think is your strongest point, really. I want to hear whatever you want to say.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1948543' date='Aug 14 2009, 12:04 AM']I'm actually interested in anything you have to say regarding defence of Franco. I said short list because I figured it would be easier, but if you want to go in depth on one aspect, then I'd be just as thrilled to read it.
Anything that you think is your strongest point, really. I want to hear whatever you want to say.[/quote]

fair enough. I'll put something up before long. Not sure how long or in depth it is, but may provide discussion fodder. Though I will say, for all the people against Franco nobody's putting anything forward against him... odd

But yes, give me a few minutes, or more

[goldenchild17]

Also I recommend reading Warren Carroll's "The Last Crusade" for a brief overview of a fair Franco representation.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1948499' date='Aug 14 2009, 12:41 AM']Because my point was, at the time of Franco the Catholic Church supported the enforcement of Catholicism as the state religion (and suppression of non-Catholic religions) in nations where there was a Catholic majority. Since Spain at this time had a Catholic majority, my argument is that Franco was well within the limits of Catholic teaching to promote Catholicism as the state religion and to suppress the public practice of non-Catholic faiths.

As America does not have a Catholic majority nor is it led by a Catholic government the same policy does not apply.[/quote]

Well, you weren't exactly clear that the Church had a campaign to suppress non-Catholic religions in countries with a Catholic majority and an established Catholic government. Anyway, I find that absolutely reprehensible.


[quote]He wasn't perfect, but sure we can get into that soon. I would appreciate it if you would follow up on your contention of him being a tyrant and essentially a murderer.[/quote]

You know, you would make this Franco sound a bit better if you actually talked about some of the good things he did instead of making so much out of the whole Catholic government thing.


[quote]So then, back up your claim that he "stole" power illegally and that he murdered anyone without just cause.[/quote]

Well, as for murder, CatherineM has already divulged the story of the father of her Godfather being murdered by Franco for the accusation of being a Republican (ie. wanting a government that existed for him instead of he for it).

As for "'stealing' power illegally", I never made such a claim. I said that he seized power for himself after an arduous and hard civil war in which the government of Spain was in disarray. The only reason many people liked the government under this guy is because he created stability out of the chaos that preceeded his reign. Other than that, I still think he was a tyrant:

"After the end of World War II, Franco maintained his control in Spain through the implementation of repressive and authoritarian measures: the systematic suppression of dissident views through censorship and coercion,[2][3] the institutionalization of torture,[4] the imprisonment of ideological enemies in concentration camps throughout the country (such as Los Merinales in Seville, San Marcos in León, Castuera in Extremadura, and Miranda de Ebro)[5], the implementation of forced labor in prisons[6] and the use of the death penalty and heavy prison sentences as deterrents for his ideological enemies[7]." (taken from the Wikipedia article titled [i]Francisco Franco[/i].

I know many believe Wikipedia to be inaccurate and unreliable in many instances (which I believe it to be in some), but the great thing about Wiki is that there are references. I invite you to check out the page and check the references for the above statements.

The article goes on to talk about Nixon toasting to Franco saying that "General Franco was a loyal friend and ally of the United States". Personally, I think he was wrong to do this simply because he was tough on communism. He toasted to a political thug.