Is Human Nature Basically Good, Bad Or Neutral?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='19 August 2009 - 05:30 PM' timestamp='1250717415' post='1952849']
Nope, you are not correct. I am an Eastern Catholic and I do not believe that anyone is born with a "stain of sin." The ancestral sin made Adam's descendants mortal, but not by nature sinful.

Sin is personal, not natural, and so there is no inherent "badness" in anyone.
[/quote]


Then why do individuals need baptism? Did Adam?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='19 August 2009 - 08:17 PM' timestamp='1250734627' post='1953014']
Then why do individuals need baptism?
[/quote]
Baptism is the ordinary means for giving a person the divine energy that is necessary throughout the process of salvation. The Church is bound by the holy mysteries, but God is not.

[quote name='Hassan' date='19 August 2009 - 08:17 PM' timestamp='1250734627' post='1953014']
Did Adam?
[/quote]
Adam was saved without receiving the mystery of baptism.

[Selah]

[quote]Adam was saved without receiving the mystery of baptism. [/quote]

This seems to prove that individuals can be saved without the mystery of Baptism since Adam and Dismas were. SO why would one need it then?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Selah' date='31 August 2009 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1251753385' post='1958998']
This seems to prove that individuals can be saved without the mystery of Baptism since Adam and Dismas were. SO why would one need it then?
[/quote]
Adam lived before the sacramental dispensation inaugurated by the incarnation and paschal mystery of Christ, and the Good Thief also died prior to the completion of the saving events of the Pascha.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Apotheoun

[bonkers]

What about Obama, is he a good person???

[Winchester]

He's the bestest person, ever.

You don't understand the question.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='bonkers' date='01 September 2009 - 08:56 AM' timestamp='1251816993' post='1959386']
What about Obama, is he a good person???
[/quote]
As to his nature he is good, because God made human nature good, but whether or not Obama is a good person is determined by his own free will activity.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Apotheoun

[bonkers]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='01 September 2009 - 11:56 AM' timestamp='1251824180' post='1959423']
As to his nature he is good, because God made human nature good, but whether or not Obama is a good person is determined by his own free will activity.
[/quote]

Wouldn't it follow that if his nature is good then so would be his actions? What about Hitler, was his nature good? What is your basis for suggesting human nature is good other than god created us that way? Even that is disputable, for example, we all know our nature is to sin, and sin is evil, the opposite of good. If our nature isn't that way, yet we choose freely to sin, then our culpability is increased.

[txdinghysailor]

basic human nature is good cuz God created it. He can't create something sinful.

[Cruce]

[quote name='txdinghysailor' date='02 September 2009 - 06:43 AM' timestamp='1251888188' post='1959810']
basic human nature is good cuz God created it. He can't create something sinful.
[/quote]
Did God create Satan?

[Selah]

Yes, he did, and at the time of creation, Satan was good. He still is good, as God created him, but evil because he chose to rebel against God and condemn himself. It was no flaw on God's part, but on Satan's part.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Selah

[Winchester]

It should be good, neutral or [i]chaotic[/i].

[Mark of the Cross]

Wo/Man is born with free will. God or Jesus will call upon everyone to follow him. But Satan will taunt and tempt to lead away and destroy.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='19 August 2009 - 04:30 PM' timestamp='1250717415' post='1952849']
Nope, you are not correct. I am an Eastern Catholic and I do not believe that anyone is born with a "stain of sin." The ancestral sin made Adam's descendants mortal, but not by nature sinful.

Sin is personal, not natural, and so there is no inherent "badness" in anyone.
[/quote]
I'm starting to think it's not just Eastern Christians who believe that, inasmuch as I found Pope Benedict saying the same thing... I can't source the quote, but it's in my book "The Essential Pope Benedict XVI". Almost certainly comments before he was elected pope. Italics are in the source, bold is my own.

[quote]In the Genesis story that we are considering, a further characteristic of sin is described. Sin is spoken of in general not as an abstract possibility but as a deed, as the sin of a particular person, Adam, who stands at the origin of humankind and with whom the history of sin begins. This account tells us that sin begets sin, and that, therefore, all the sins of history are interlinked. Theology refer to this state of affairs by the [b]certainly misleading and imprecise term[/b] [i]original sin[/i]. What does this mean? Nothing seems to us today to be stranger or, indeed, more absurd that to insist upon original sin, since, according to our way of thinking, guilt can only be something very personal, and God does not run a concentration camp in which one's relatives are imprisoned, because he is a liberating God of love who calls each one by name. What does [i]original sin[/i] mean, then, when we interpret it correctly?
Finding an answer to this requires nothing less than trying to understand the human person better. It must once again be stressed that no human being is closed in upon himself or herself and that no one can live of or for himself or herself alone. We receive our life not only at the moment of birth but every day from without- from others who are not ourselves but who nonetheless somehow pertain to us. Human beings have their selves not only in themselves but also outside of themselves: they live in those whom they love and in those who love them and to whom they are present. Human beings are relational, and the possess their lives- themselves- only by way of relationship. I alone am not myself, but only in and with you am I myself. To be truly a human being means to be related in love, to be [i]of[/i] and [i]for[/i]. But sin means the damaging or destruction of relationality. Sin is a rejection of relationality because it wants to make the human being a god. Sin is loss of relationship, a disturbance of relationship, and therefore, it is not restricted to the individual. When I destroy a relationship, then this event- sin- touches the other person involved in the relationship. Consequently sin is always an offense that touches others, that alters the world and damages it. To the extent that this is true, when the network of human relationships is damaged from the very beginning, then every human being enters into a world that is marked by relational damage. At the very moment when a person begins human existence, which is a good, he or she is confronted by a sin-damaged world. Each of us enters into a situation in which relationality has been hurt. Consequently each person is, from the very start, damaged in relationships and does not engage in them as he or she ought. Sin pursues the human being, and he or she capitulates to it.
But from this it is also clear that human beings alone cannot save themselves. Their innate error is precisely that they want to do this by themselves. We can only be saved- that is, free and true- when we stop wanting to be God and renounce the madness of autonomy and self-sufficiency. We can only be saved- that is, become ourselves- when we engage in the proper relationship. But our interpersonal relationships occur in the context of our utter creatureliness, and it is there that the damage lies. Since the relationship with Creation has been damaged, only the Creator himself can be our savior. We can be saved only when he from whom we have cut ourselves off takes the initiative with us and stretches out his hand to us. Only being loved is being saved, and only God's love can purify damaged human love and radically re-establish the network of relationships that have suffered from alienation. [/quote]

Edited September 9, 2009 by Nihil Obstat

[Winchester]

[quote name='Cruce' date='08 September 2009 - 01:34 AM' timestamp='1252388061' post='1963197']
Did God create Satan?
[/quote]
God created Lucifer. Lucifer became "Satan", which is a title, not a name. That doesn't mean his nature was sinful.

[Slappo]

[quote name='bonkers' date='02 September 2009 - 01:52 AM' timestamp='1251881547' post='1959803']
Wouldn't it follow that if his nature is good then so would be his actions? What about Hitler, was his nature good? What is your basis for suggesting human nature is good other than god created us that way? Even that is disputable, for example, we all know our nature is to sin, and sin is evil, the opposite of good. If our nature isn't that way, yet we choose freely to sin, then our culpability is increased.
[/quote]

Bonkers, you err in that you assume our nature is to sin. Our nature however is oriented towards goodness. As St. Augustine writes in Chapter 18 of his Confessions, even sin is oriented towards what is [i]perceived[/i] to be a good. When a man steals this is an evil action, but it is compelled by a desire of a good (I.E wealth, sustenance, pleasure).

Our nature is oriented towards the good, but our nature is corrupt in that we sometimes choose a lesser good over a greater good.

[Winchester]

Try smaller words and pejoratives.

And smilies.

[Servus_Mariae]

All of creation acts in pursuit of the good, therefore all bear an essentially good nature.

However, due to the distortion of sin which has effected our will, we may desire to do sinful things. Not becuase they are bad but because of a good which resides in the action. No one kills to take life for the sake of taking a life. That's why even in the most cruel murders an investigation pursues motive (some good must have been attained is the premise for this). Even if the motive is so calloused as to simply find enjoyment in such a horrible thing...the pursuit then is pleasure which is a good...yet the action to obtain it is evil. The pursuit of good is inherent in every action...but may be distorted.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Servus_Mariae' date='11 September 2009 - 10:46 AM' timestamp='1252626367' post='1964613']
All of creation acts in pursuit of the good, therefore all bear an essentially good nature.

However, due to the distortion of sin which has effected our will, we may desire to do sinful things. Not becuase they are bad but because of a good which resides in the action. No one kills to take life for the sake of taking a life. That's why even in the most cruel murders an investigation pursues motive (some good must have been attained is the premise for this). Even if the motive is so calloused as to simply find enjoyment in such a horrible thing...the pursuit then is pleasure which is a good...yet the action to obtain it is evil. The pursuit of good is inherent in every action...but may be distorted.
[/quote]
There is an exception. There are mentally ill people who hurt themselves and others because they want to feel pain not pleasure. They do this driven by depression which in some cases drives the suffer to feed it rather than to overcome it.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='11 September 2009 - 12:30 AM' timestamp='1252643446' post='1964772']
There is an exception. There are mentally ill people who hurt themselves and others because they want to feel pain not pleasure. They do this driven by depression which in some cases drives the suffer to feed it rather than to overcome it.
[/quote]
This is an objective disorder, and does not reflect upon the nature of Man.