75 Killed, 310 Injured In Baghdad Attacks

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Didacus' date='20 August 2009 - 09:28 AM' timestamp='1250774892' post='1953194']
In short, the ethnic conflicts can in time span out into surrounding regions and excalate.
[/quote]
Which is why early withdrawal via Operation Iraqi Surrender is dangerous. We can withdraw when its infant government matures.

Side issue: When are we going to pull out of Germany and Japan? Bring the troops home now!

[Didacus]

The US is far beyond any positive outcome of the Iraq occupation.

[Hassan]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='20 August 2009 - 12:25 PM' timestamp='1250785529' post='1953224']
It wasn't extreme chaos because the wood chippers and dungeons kept everyone in line.[/QUOTE]

Not to mention a strong standing army and police force, strong state institutions and stable bureaucracy.



[QUOTE]You can't imagine Saddam any worse because the media refuses to do its job and do a thorough job reporting the humanitarian atrocities perpetrated by Saddam.[/QUOTE]


What are you talking about? Is there any substantial population of the US that does not understand that Saddam Hussein was a monster? I was only in middle school at the time but I remember plenty of stories about Saddam's atrocities.

[QUOTE]I remember some guy made a video which collected many of the videos Saddam's henchmen took of people being tortured, slaughtered in the streets, wood chipped, etc. The media labeled him as over the top and trying to profiteer by making a "Faces of Death" type video. I thought he was doing the media's job.

Saddam was a WMD.
[/quote]

Which is why Reagan refused to have even the most tentative connection to him right? Saddam was a dictator. As far as dictator's and individuals who egregiously violated human rights Saddam wasn't the worse, not by far. We were able to maintain a relationship with him in the 80's when we felt it would serve our purposes in bashing up Iran. How do you think our friends in Egypt, China, Azerbaijan, pre revolutionary Iran et cetera keep their people in line?

Most of Saddam's worse atrocities occurred in the late 80's and early 90's. We let the Iraqi's suffer under Saddam plenty long. But suddenly in 2003 we had to sprint to invade Iraq without a viable plan for maintaining or reinstating some semblance of security? Was he still a monster in 2003? Of course. But the fact that he was not adverse to shoving a political opponent through a wood chipper doesn't mean that the average Iraqi didn't have a more stable and secure existence than in the post-Saddam civil war and ethnic cleansing.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Hassan

[Hassan]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='20 August 2009 - 12:29 PM' timestamp='1250785781' post='1953225']
Which is why early withdrawal via Operation Iraqi Surrender is dangerous. We can withdraw when its infant government matures.

Side issue: When are we going to pull out of Germany and Japan? Bring the troops home now!
[/quote]


I don't know about Germany, but I believe Okinawa is a serious strategic asset.

[Hassan]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='20 August 2009 - 12:25 PM' timestamp='1250785529' post='1953224']
You can't imagine Saddam any worse because the media refuses to do its job and do a thorough job reporting the humanitarian atrocities perpetrated by Saddam.

[/quote]


I'd wager that CatherineM's point isn't based on an ignorance of Saddam's wickedness, but an understanding of what a sick Muqtada al-Sadr and his thugs are.

What political faction do you ultimately see coming to power in Iraq after we leave? I don't know of any good possabilities.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='19 August 2009 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1250712805' post='1952771']
It wasn't a land of peace before we got there, but there wasn't extreme chaos either. I can't imagine Saddam being any worse than the radical/military/fanatic government they will eventually end up with after they tear themselves apart for a few years.
[/quote]
I would call the gassing of the Kurd's extreme chaos.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='20 August 2009 - 04:37 PM' timestamp='1250807866' post='1953408']
We let the Iraqi's suffer under Saddam plenty long.
[/quote]
You're right . . . Saddam should have been removed from power in the 1980s.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 August 2009 - 06:57 PM' timestamp='1250809069' post='1953432']
You're right . . . Saddam should have been removed from power in the 1980s.
[/quote]

Shouldn't have been the Iraquis to remove Saddam from power? I mean, if they weren't willing to risk their lives to change their nation why shoiuld the US risk their lives?

[Didacus]

By the way, here's an interesting link:

[url="http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/"]Iraqui Body Count[/url]

Well, its also pretty sad. But there is plenty of useful information on that site.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Didacus

[Hassan]

[quote name='Didacus' date='21 August 2009 - 07:36 AM' timestamp='1250854594' post='1953755']
By the way, here's an interesting link:

[url="http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/"]Iraqui Body Count[/url]

Well, its also pretty sad. But there is plenty of useful information on that site.
[/quote]


That is a very conservative estimation

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Didacus' date='21 August 2009 - 06:33 AM' timestamp='1250854430' post='1953753']
Shouldn't have been the Iraquis to remove Saddam from power? I mean, if they weren't willing to risk their lives to change their nation why shoiuld the US risk their lives?
[/quote]

I agree completely. We robbed the Iraqis of their George Washington or Nathan Hale. Had the people joined together to overthrow Saddam, maybe they would have stayed together instead of the deep divisions there are now.

[Didacus]

It is a conservative estimate because they only count the documentable casualties. Those casualties that go unreported are not counted. I'm certain several victims will never be found.

[Didacus]

[url="http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/090824/world/iraq_unrest"]My link[/url]

Still more bombings.

No end in sight from my view point.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Didacus' date='24 August 2009 - 02:28 PM' timestamp='1251138539' post='1955616']
[url="http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/090824/world/iraq_unrest"]My link[/url]

Still more bombings.

No end in sight from my view point.

[/quote]

I don't see any positive end in sight for the Arab world (including Israel) generally for quite some time. I'd love to be wrong about that though.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Hassan' date='20 August 2009 - 06:37 PM' timestamp='1250807866' post='1953408']
Not to mention a strong standing army and police force, strong state institutions and stable bureaucracy. [/quote]
Tyrants usually have their power ducks in a row about these things. Nothing to revere or ignore.

[quote]What are you talking about? Is there any substantial population of the US that does not understand that Saddam Hussein was a monster? I was only in middle school at the time but I remember plenty of stories about Saddam's atrocities.[/quote]
I have talked with plenty of people who seem to have forgotten what a criminal to humanity Saddam was. But hey, they want to make sure we SAVE DARFUR!

[quote]Which is why Reagan refused to have even the most tentative connection to him right? Saddam was a dictator. As far as dictator's and individuals who egregiously violated human rights Saddam wasn't the worse, not by far. We were able to maintain a relationship with him in the 80's when we felt it would serve our purposes in bashing up Iran. How do you think our friends in Egypt, China, Azerbaijan, pre revolutionary Iran et cetera keep their people in line?

Most of Saddam's worse atrocities occurred in the late 80's and early 90's. We let the Iraqi's suffer under Saddam plenty long. But suddenly in 2003 we had to sprint to invade Iraq without a viable plan for maintaining or reinstating some semblance of security? Was he still a monster in 2003? Of course. But the fact that he was not adverse to shoving a political opponent through a wood chipper doesn't mean that the average Iraqi didn't have a more stable and secure existence than in the post-Saddam civil war and ethnic cleansing.
[/quote]
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. We have seen this numerous times in history. We partnered with Russia to fight a couple of world wars. It worked well. In the case of Iraq, I am sure the administration was always hopeful they could groom the Iraqi government to be a responsible power. By the late 80s, it became evident that was going to happen with Saddam in power. So, we ended up where we were when he invaded Kuwait, the straw that broke the camel's back.

2003 did not suddenly happen. It was a long, drawn out process. Diplomacy at all levels was tried at numerous angles before force was used. America pursued peaceful means throughout the 90s and until 2003.

Iraq was not stable or secure before 2003. We can review history using numbers.

Let's assume the web site Iraq Body Count is correct. The high body count is 101,388 deaths. It is a tragic number. Let's assume it's a conservative number and double it just to satisfy doubters. So, it's 202,766 deaths since the invasion.

Here are a couple of quotes to think about and these numbers cover Saddam's mass graves only. I am sure he has more bodies unaccounted for.

[quote]Most of the graves discovered to date correspond to one of five major atrocities perpetrated by the regime.
* The 1983 attack against Kurdish citizens belonging to the Barzani tribe, [b]8,000[/b] of whom were rounded up by the regime in northern Iraq and executed in deserts at great distances from their homes.
* The 1988 Anfal campaign, during which as many as [b]182,000 people disappeared[/b]. Most of the men were separated from their families and were executed in deserts in the west and southwest of Iraq. The remains of some of their wives and children have also been found in mass graves.
* Chemical attacks against Kurdish villages from 1986 to 1988, including the Halabja attack, when the Iraqi Air Force dropped sarin, VX and tabun chemical agents on the civilian population, killing [b]5,000 people[/b] immediately and causing long-term medical problems, related deaths, and birth defects among the progeny of thousands more.
* The 1991 massacre of Iraqi Shi’a Muslims after the Shi’a uprising at the end of the Gulf war, in which [b]tens of thousands[/b] of soldiers and civilians in such regions as Basra and Al-Hillah were killed.
* The 1991 Kurdish massacre, which targeted civilians and soldiers who fought for autonomy in northern Iraq after the Gulf war.

Opponents and critics of the regime from all religious and ethnic groups were also executed and buried in mass graves. Many of these are believed to be located at or near prisons and former military establishments."
[url="http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27928.htm"]Source[/url]
[/quote]
Those stats are from 2003. [url="http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gQ26jgG3joyWEY-F5wFSk_wFovtQ?index=0"]They are still locating mass graves[/url].

[quote]One of the gravest crimes committed by Saddam's regime was the chemical bombardment of Kurdistan's city of Halbaja on March 16, 1988, leading to the [b]deaths of 5,000 people, mostly women and children[/b]. In the same year, the then government conducted a series of campaigns against Kurds in what is known as the Anfal Campaign. [b]Nearly 182,000 Kurds were killed[/b] and buried in several mass graves all over Iraq, the website said. In 1991, around [b]350,000 Iraqis were also believed to have been massacred[/b] following an uprising staged by Iraqis against the then government.

Moreover, statistics produced by the Iraqi Human Rights Ministry revealed a mass grave in al-Madain, 24 km southeast of Baghdad, which dates back to April 4, 2003, four days before the toppling of Saddam's regime. A total number of 240 mass graves have so far been discovered in more than 100 sites all over Iraq.
[url="http://www.ekurd.net/mismas/articles/misc2007/5/judgement353.htm"]Source[/url]
[/quote]

It's horrible to be killed by a bomb as many of the post-2003 invasion victims likely have been. Here are methods Saddam used to kill his victims.

[quote]Torture Methods in Iraq

* Medical experimentation
* Beatings
* Crucifixion
* Hammering nails into the fingers and hands
* Amputating the [private parts] with an electric carving knife
* Spraying insecticides into a victim’s eyes
* Branding with a hot iron
* Committing rape while the victim’s spouse is forced to watch
* Pouring boiling water into a rectum
* Nailing the tongue to a wooden board
* Extracting teeth with pliers
* Using bees and scorpions to sting naked children in front of their parents

[url="http://www.defendamerica.mil/specials/dec2003/atrocities122203.html"]Source[/url]
[/quote]

If we could, should we hit rewind on time and put everything back to the way it was before we did something about it?

Edited August 24, 2009 by kamiller42