Problems At Franciscan

[VeniteAdoremus]

If you're part of a culture where dance and expressions of joy are tied to reverence, as in many African cultures, I [i]really[/i] don't see what the problem is.

I prefer Gregorian chant to all other music at Mass, but that's an ancient European tradition. It doesn't have any worshipful connotation to someone from China or Nigeria.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 August 2009 - 10:50 AM' timestamp='1251208215' post='1956060']
I don't know why that is allowed. Such things are not permitted in the Byzantine liturgy in South America or Africa. The integrity of the rite is paramount.
[/quote]

Well, the Eastern liturgies strike me as somewhat more structured that the Latin Rite OF. Maybe that's part of it.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='25 August 2009 - 09:48 AM' timestamp='1251208127' post='1956059']
Then why are Africans and Latin Americans permitted to use native dance in their liturgies?
[/quote]
I know some people who just got back from a mission in South Africa. They're more Orthodox than people let on.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' date='25 August 2009 - 09:04 AM' timestamp='1251209078' post='1956072']
If you're part of a culture where dance and expressions of joy are tied to reverence, as in many African cultures, I [i]really[/i] don't see what the problem is.
[/quote]

Instead of having prayerful dances during the Eucharistic Liturgy itself, perhaps it would be best for Catholics in those cultures to have devotional dancing services outside of the Liturgy.

[VeniteAdoremus]

The Nigerian postulant in my community gave the Offertory as an example: people would come up and offer their gifts, and dance with joy while doing it because they have gifts to give in the first place, and they get to offer them to God.

I actually thought that was pretty cool. It's not "liturgical dance". It's like dropping your coin on the plate with a smile, but bigger. Not to show off to anyone but out of genuine feeling.

[KnightofChrist]

But as Cardinal Arinze points out African dance at Mass is not really dance, but very slight 'dance-like' movement. Dance is not and has never been allowed in the Mass.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' date='26 August 2009 - 07:03 PM' timestamp='1251331403' post='1956681']
The Nigerian postulant in my community gave the Offertory as an example: people would come up and offer their gifts, and dance with joy while doing it because they have gifts to give in the first place, and they get to offer them to God.

I actually thought that was pretty cool. It's not "liturgical dance". It's like dropping your coin on the plate with a smile, but bigger. Not to show off to anyone but out of genuine feeling.
[/quote]

Wouldn't it be rather inconvenient to dance right in front of the sanctuary? One would have genuflect constantly (or bow if the tabernacle was not on or behind the main altar).

Edited August 27, 2009 by Resurrexi

[KnightofChrist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rJFdmmqj_shttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rJFdmmqj_s Video of Cardinal Arinze about dance at Mass

Dancing is not a form of expression for the Christian liturgy. In about the third century, there was an attempt in certain Gnostic-Docetic circles to introduce it into the liturgy. For these people, the Crucifixion was only an ap­pearance. Before the Passion, Christ had abandoned the body that in any case he had never really assumed. Danc­ing could take the place of the liturgy of the Cross, be­cause, after all, the Cross was only an appearance. The cultic dances of the different religions have different pur­poses—incantation, imitative magic, mystical ecstasy— none of which is compatible with the essential purpose of the liturgy of the “reasonable sacrifice”. It is totally absurd to try to make the liturgy “attractive” by introducing dancing pantomimes (wherever possible performed by professional dance troupes), which frequently (and rightly, from the professionals’ point of view) end with applause. Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment. Such attrac­tiveness fades quickly—it cannot compete in the market of leisure pursuits, incorporating as it increasingly does various forms of religious titillation. I myself have expe­rienced the replacing of the penitential rite by a dance performance, which, needless to say, received a round of applause. Could there be anything farther removed from true penitence? Liturgy can only attract people when it looks, not at itself, but at God, when it allows him to enter and act. Then something truly unique happens, beyond competition, and people have a sense that more has taken place than a recreational activity. None of the Christian rites includes dancing. [The Spirit of the Liturgy, (SF, CA: Ignatius, 2000), p. 198]

Cardinal Ratzinger now Pope Benedict XVI

Edited August 27, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='27 August 2009 - 03:13 AM' timestamp='1251331991' post='1956689']
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rJFdmmqj_s"]Video of Cardinal Arinze about dance at Mass[/url]
[/quote]

Fixed the link

I totally agree with this interpretation of the word "dance".

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' date='26 August 2009 - 08:47 PM' timestamp='1251330425' post='1956669']
I know some people who just got back from a mission in South Africa. They're more Orthodox than people let on.
[/quote]

I didn't say or imply anything about their orthodoxy.

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='26 August 2009 - 08:58 PM' timestamp='1251331085' post='1956675']
Instead of having prayerful dances during the Eucharistic Liturgy itself, perhaps it would be best for Catholics in those cultures to have devotional dancing services outside of the Liturgy.
[/quote]

Knight clarified what I meant here...

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='26 August 2009 - 09:06 PM' timestamp='1251331560' post='1956683']
But as Cardinal Arinze points out African dance at Mass is not really dance, but very slight 'dance-like' movement. Dance is not and has never been allowed in the Mass.
[/quote]



[quote name='Resurrexi' date='26 August 2009 - 09:07 PM' timestamp='1251331660' post='1956684']
Wouldn't it be rather inconvenient to dance right in front of the sanctuary? One would have genuflect constantly (or bow if the tabernacle was not on or behind the main altar).


[/quote]

Wow.

[Roamin'Catholic]

Charismatic worship is rooted in a superficial and juvenile interpetion of the Council's call for "active participation" amongst the laity. This misinterpretation, which has become fashionable in some circles, has led some to believe that "active participation" meant more hand-clapping, foot stomping, entertainment, casualness, hand-holding, extraordinary ministers, alter girls, etc. at the mass, when in reality 'active participation' was referring to a spiritual condition in which the laity are united with Holy Mother Church both in prayer&meditation during the Mass, and in thought&action during their daily lives. The "active participation" that the Council refers to has nothing to do with physical activity, but rather a deeper, daily participation in our baptismal promises.

I hear nothing but great things about FSU from those who have experience in Catholic higher education. My advice: Don't fear; stay there at FSU and be a shining example amongst the student body of how the Catholic faith was, and has always been practiced and believed. The fate of the charismatic movement, is that of the 1970s leisure suit: eventually those who prefer this style get old and die, if they haven't already come to their senses, and the practice becomes no longer popular.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Roamin'Catholic

[Mary Veronica]

[quote name='I-R.I.S.H' date='22 August 2009 - 07:19 PM' timestamp='1250983142' post='1954491']
Im on my 4th day at Franciscan University of Steubenville. The problem im having is that the masses are all served with charismatic worship. Im from seattle and i have to say that i have never seen anything like this. I grew up on the traditional type of mass, where the idea is to be quite during mass to absorb and reflect on the gospel, and the paschel mystery. Here hands are always up, and constant singing and this of this nature. For me it just seems irreverent, and in no way am i trying to offend anyone, but isnt the focus of the mass supposed to be the sacrifice on the alter? all of this makes it so hard to focus on the mass, and i attended because of the idea of being able to attend mass daily, and now i would rather hold up in my room and stay lost in personal prayer.

Am I just being too harsh? If anyone has any advice on how i can stop from feeling this way?

thanks
[/quote]


Pray and ask Jesus and Mother Mary in your contemplation why you even feel this way? they're the only ones who know the depth of your concern and they're the only ones who can give you peace of mind and heart. It was them who first and foremost brought you into the faith and it was them who will take you through it: Jesus, who is our sole redeemer calls and leads us out of darkness (because that is His essence, to be LIGHT), and Mary who is rightfully honored to dispense and treasure all graces(...It has never been heard that anyone could descend from Heaven, for Heaven in itself is the ultimate goal and last end of all Creation, who would dare come down from it?-the devil and all his followers are excluded from this because they never experienced Heaven from the instant they chose to reject God- Yet, You Mary, who surpassing all the prophets and saints, brought all of Heaven down to the earth, and not only in fire, cloud, and water, but in Blood, sustaining Heaven Himself, True Heaven, in Yourself, in Your Immaculate self, in Your womb! and what made You worthy to receive God, who saved You by His Grace and saved us through You. You accomplished almost nothing at Your age when He came to You. and what sign did the little girl perform and what visions did the little girl see and what did the little girl do for God that would raise her above the prophets and saints? My Mother, it seems all You did was let God be present with You, stand beside You, converse with You, love You, simply do 'great things' to you. "Behold, all generations shall call me Blessed because He who is Mighty has done great things for me and holy is His Name." what is this great thing? bearing and loving a child as any Mother would? but not just any child, but the Word who existed in the beginning! Who in all of God's Creation would dare desire or even allow the Word to come upon them, overshadow them, and dwell in them? what then would this God be to us, if He is the one serving us and living in our flesh? O Mary, It is not what You have done for God that all Generations call You blessed, but what you let God do for You that has brought about our salvation! He served You and made happily His dwelling in You..."

*cough* sorry, I have a little st. louis de montfort in me, I can't stop talking about Jesus and Mary when I get started. um, anyways, I had the same problem when I came out of discerning the Poor Clare Monastery (they're Mass is quite solemn with Gregorian Chant, etc.), and now I admire both kinds of masses. but according to the inspiration I received from our Lord and our Lady, personally for my sake, I should always celebrate Mass (charismatic or solemn)with the presence of Jesus and Mary, then my intentions and thoughts become all good in the eyes of God....

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Roamin'Catholic' date='28 August 2009 - 03:08 PM' timestamp='1251482882' post='1957308']
This misinterpretation, which has become fashionable in some circles, has led some to believe that "active participation" meant more hand-clapping, foot stomping, entertainment, casualness, hand-holding, extraordinary ministers, alter girls, etc. at the mass,
[/quote]

This has nothing to do with charismatic worship. Just sayin'

[scardella]

[quote name='Roamin'Catholic' date='28 August 2009 - 02:08 PM' timestamp='1251482882' post='1957308']
Charismatic worship is rooted in a [b]superficial and juvenile interpetion[/b] of the Council's call for "active participation" amongst the laity. This misinterpretation, which has become fashionable in some circles, has led some to believe that "active participation" meant more hand-clapping, foot stomping, entertainment, casualness, hand-holding, extraordinary ministers, alter girls, etc. at the mass, when in reality 'active participation' was referring to a spiritual condition in which the laity are united with Holy Mother Church both in prayer&meditation during the Mass, and in thought&action during their daily lives. The "active participation" that the Council refers to has nothing to do with physical activity, but rather a deeper, daily participation in our baptismal promises.

I hear nothing but great things about FSU from those who have experience in Catholic higher education. My advice: Don't fear; stay there at FSU and be a shining example amongst the student body of how the Catholic faith was, and has always been practiced and believed. [b]The fate of the charismatic movement, is that of the 1970s leisure suit: eventually those who prefer this style get old and die, if they haven't already come to their senses, and the practice becomes no longer popular.[/b]
[/quote]

I take serious offense to this post.

Edited August 29, 2009 by scardella

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='I-R.I.S.H' date='22 August 2009 - 07:19 PM' timestamp='1250983142' post='1954491']
Im on my 4th day at Franciscan University of Steubenville. The problem im having is that the masses are all served with charismatic worship. Im from seattle and i have to say that i have never seen anything like this. I grew up on the traditional type of mass, where the idea is to be quite during mass to absorb and reflect on the gospel, and the paschel mystery. Here hands are always up, and constant singing and this of this nature. For me it just seems irreverent, and in no way am i trying to offend anyone, but isnt the focus of the mass supposed to be the sacrifice on the alter? all of this makes it so hard to focus on the mass, and i attended because of the idea of being able to attend mass daily, and now i would rather hold up in my room and stay lost in personal prayer.

Am I just being too harsh? If anyone has any advice on how i can stop from feeling this way?

thanks
[/quote]

Well, while the FUS way of liturgy may not be your preference (it wasn't mine, either, by the way), you have to remind yourself that Jesus is still there. Unfortunately, we as individuals never offer Him perfect praise in this life, but that doesn't mean you can't be at the Mass and remain in silent adoration during the parts you find uncomfortable (it's what I did most of the time). If all else fails, there's always St. Peter's in downtown Steubie, just a few minutes from campus, and their Masses are generally more traditional.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='scardella' date='29 August 2009 - 08:37 AM' timestamp='1251556645' post='1957774']
I take serious offense to this post.
[/quote]
It was somewhat harsh, but the leisure suit comment was funny.

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='25 August 2009 - 10:48 AM' timestamp='1251208127' post='1956059']
Then why are Africans and Latin Americans permitted to use native dance in their liturgies?
[/quote]

I've been gone for a while lol. But I do know why that is allowed, because the Pope thinks it's alright. Charismatic Africa in the building!!! Lol.

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='scardella' date='29 August 2009 - 11:37 AM' timestamp='1251556645' post='1957774']
I take serious offense to this post.
[/quote]

I concur. This is exactly why I left phatmass for a while. I find that there is a serious spirit of division amongst us. This topic was about our brother in christ who was not used to the charismatic renewal. He had some legitimate concerns. But as always, this topic always stirs up the emotions of people and the charismatic renewal is always trashed. I don't know why, we can't accept the fact that Pope John Paul the Great and Papa Benny have both attended masses where the Charismatic style of worship was displayed and did not complain. We all have ways that we worship our King Jesus. I agree with Raphael, if you are uncomfortable with the whole charismatic thing, then you can either pray quietly or find a more traditional church. But I would tell you, in Africa and South America, this type of worship is relative to all masses. I really do find your comment offensive and as your little brother in Christ, I want you to think about how Our Lord would feel about your comment. Though there are a few bad apples, people who owe more loyalty to the Renewal than to their Catholic faith, Scardella and I are not in that lot. Our involvement in the Charismatic Renewal, strengthens our Catholic faith. I have love for my more traditionalist brothers in christ, I learned that in my hiatus from here. But there are many on this site, that need to learn to accept our brother and sisters in Christ who worship differently (as long as Rome is in Agreement).

[Apotheoun]

Evidently you're back, so your reasons for leaving couldn't be that serious.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Apotheoun

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='29 August 2009 - 12:19 PM' timestamp='1251559163' post='1957811']
Evidently you're back, so your reasons for leaving couldn't be that serious.
[/quote]

No, I returned because Jesus made me realize that my brothers and sisters didn't mean to hurt me and that I let my feelings get in the way of my judgement, that I should forgive those who hurt me deeply.