Mandatory Schooling: Good Or Bad?

[Jordanus]

While I hear what you're saying, and we as a society do tend to overdo it, I think there is one thing that institutional schooling can do for you that self-teaching can't - or at any rate doesn't seem to very often.

I've met plenty of people who were self-educated. Most of them were very smart. But very few of them had much capacity for critical thinking. I think that's because by following their own leads, they rarely if ever spent time with ideas they disagreed with. I sure know that's my inclination when on my own.

Institutional schooling forces you to read books you disagree with by authors you despise, and then write essays on them. And while one doesn't enjoy it at all, it does seem, on the whole, to give one perspective.

[Winchester]

I find that the majority of degreed individuals have little capacity for critical thought. They also tend to diminish the capability of those who are not formally educated. They also place too strong an emphasis on anecdotal evidence.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Winchester

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
can someone explain to me why a bachelor's degree is really expensive to get, but a master's isn't as expensive? you'd think it would be the other way around

[Era Might]

[quote name='Jordanus' date='25 August 2009 - 12:13 PM' timestamp='1251216784' post='1956178']
While I hear what you're saying, and we as a society do tend to overdo it, I think there is one thing that institutional schooling can do for you that self-teaching can't - or at any rate doesn't seem to very often.

I've met plenty of people who were self-educated. Most of them were very smart. But very few of them had much capacity for critical thinking. I think that's because by following their own leads, they rarely if ever spent time with ideas they disagreed with. I sure know that's my inclination when on my own.

Institutional schooling forces you to read books you disagree with by authors you despise, and then write essays on them. And while one doesn't enjoy it at all, it does seem, on the whole, to give one perspective.
[/quote]
Self-education is not the only alternative to mandatory schooling. There could still be schools, for people who want to attend them. The problem is that society makes schooling mandatory, and requires you to pay thousands of dollars for a piece of paper that will get you a job. But there are other alternatives to mandatory schooling. Humans are smart. We can think of new models to replace mandatory schooling.

Also, self-education does not have to be solitary. You can still find people to engage with, and people who will challenge/help shape your thinking.

[Winchester]

If formal education were truly neccessary, we wouldn't have formal education.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='25 August 2009 - 12:16 PM' timestamp='1251216968' post='1956182']
+J.M.J.+
can someone explain to me why a bachelor's degree is really expensive to get, but a master's isn't as expensive? you'd think it would be the other way around
[/quote]
They explain it when you get your master's degree.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Winchester' date='25 August 2009 - 10:24 AM' timestamp='1251217442' post='1956193']
They explain it when you get your master's degree.
[/quote]
oh.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='25 August 2009 - 12:16 PM' timestamp='1251216968' post='1956182']
+J.M.J.+
can someone explain to me why a bachelor's degree is really expensive to get, but a master's isn't as expensive? you'd think it would be the other way around[/quote]
My experience was totally the opposite of that. Grad school was way more expensive than undergrad. It depends, I think, on the area of study you choose.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Era Might' date='25 August 2009 - 12:16 PM' timestamp='1251217018' post='1956184']
Self-education is not the only alternative to mandatory schooling. There could still be schools, for people who want to attend them. The problem is that society makes schooling mandatory, and requires you to pay thousands of dollars for a piece of paper that will get you a job. But there are other alternatives to mandatory schooling. Humans are smart. We can think of new models to replace mandatory schooling.

Also, self-education does not have to be solitary. You can still find people to engage with, and people who will challenge/help shape your thinking.
[/quote]
I'm confused about what you mean by "mandatory schooling." And, I suppose, what you mean by society.

I've been assuming you're referring to college/university, not high school (which I would say does actually approach "mandatory," at least until the age of 16). Census stats show that just over 50 percent of Americans have some college, 25 percent have finished bachelors degrees, and 9 percent have grad degrees. That does not seem mandatory to me.

All the major jobs I have held since graduating from college have required a college degree, and I couldn't have gotten them without my degree. But, I really never achieved much in the way of financial success -- far, far less than my husband, who does not have a degree (although he has some college and more than 5,000 books). Clearly anecdotal evidence, but I guess I still struggle to see a college education as being mandatory for entrance into/acceptance by society. There are jobs that require a degree, and jobs where a degree makes it easier to get in, and jobs where charm and charisma get you a lot farther than a degree.

[VeniteAdoremus]

Before I add my rant - what are the higher education statistics in the USA? The Netherlands has about 20% Bachelors (be they applied or university - there's a difference here) and 10% masters/doctorate.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' date='26 August 2009 - 10:38 AM' timestamp='1251297484' post='1956227']
Before I add my rant - what are the higher education statistics in the USA? The Netherlands has about 20% Bachelors (be they applied or university - there's a difference here) and 10% masters/doctorate.
[/quote]
[quote name='Terra Firma' date='26 August 2009 - 10:32 AM' timestamp='1251297165' post='1956225']
Census stats show that just over 50 percent of Americans have some college, 25 percent have finished bachelors degrees, and 9 percent have grad degrees.
[/quote]


Rant away!

[homeschoolmom]

[Era Might]

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='26 August 2009 - 10:32 AM' timestamp='1251297165' post='1956225']
I'm confused about what you mean by "mandatory schooling." And, I suppose, what you mean by society.[/quote]
You sum up what I mean by "mandatory schooling" here:

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='26 August 2009 - 10:32 AM' timestamp='1251297165' post='1956225']All the major jobs I have held since graduating from college have required a college degree, and I couldn't have gotten them without my degree.[/quote]
Before college, of course, schooling is literally mandatory for twelve years. But beyond that, schooling is practically mandatory in society. I use the word "society" because so-called "higher education" is not mandated by the government or any authority. It is mandated by the expectations and standards that society has established. As you said, you "couldn't have gotten [those jobs] without [your] degree." Society makes schooling necessary. And the problem is deeper than just getting a job. Those who have gone through schooling are seen more positively than those who have not gone through schooling. We consider it a mark of shame that someone doesn't graduate high school. We see schooling as a mark of prestige. We equate schooling with learning. We equate going to school with being smart. To even question the idea that mandatory schooling is a good thing, is practically secular blasphemy. Society will look favorably on a debate about how best to fund and reform schools. But to advocate that what is needed is not a reform, but a complete abolition of mandatory schooling, would probably be seen as a crazy proposal. Society is so dependent on the institution of schooling, that we believe we cannot live without it. We believe that without the institution of schooling, no one would learn. This is what I mean by "mandatory schooling." We have lost our freedom and independence as human beings, and have become slaves to institutions. We don't allow people to learn on their own. They must enter an institution. They must be approved by an institution. We say that the poor need more schooling. But what happens when the poor fail in school? Society proposes schooling as their salvation, and when mandatory schooling fails them, society has no other savior to offer them. We tell the poor that the answer to their failure in school is more schooling, better schooling, that the answer is to spend more money on institutions. So we set the poor on a chase for an illusion that never ends. We set more schooling, more institutions before them, and lead them to believe that to solve their problems, they need to do better in the institutions. This keeps the institutions growing and growing and growing, and the grip of institutions on society becomes even firmer.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Era Might' date='26 August 2009 - 11:48 AM' timestamp='1251301719' post='1956264']

Before college, of course, schooling is literally mandatory for twelve years. [/quote]

Actually, this is not true and it varies by state. In Minnesota, for example, the state law requires children to attend school (gov't, private or home) between the ages of 7 and 16. So, really, that's only 9 years.

Not everyone realizes that.

[Era Might]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='26 August 2009 - 11:54 AM' timestamp='1251302071' post='1956270']
Actually, this is not true and it varies by state. In Minnesota, for example, the state law requires children to attend school (gov't, private or home) between the ages of 7 and 16. So, really, that's only 9 years.

Not everyone realizes that.
[/quote]
Yes, but you are required to attend school unless you drop out. So it is still mandatory, though at a certain age, you have the option of being excused from the obligation.

But by dropping out of school, society brands you as a failure. We view high school dropouts who later have success as remarkable stories, as though it's some amazing feat to succeed without the help of an institution.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Era Might' date='26 August 2009 - 12:01 PM' timestamp='1251302487' post='1956272']
Yes, but you are required to attend school unless you drop out. So it is still mandatory, though at a certain age, you have the option of being excused from the obligation.

But by dropping out of school, society brands you as a failure. We view high school dropouts who later have success as remarkable stories, as though it's some amazing feat to succeed without the help of an institution.
[/quote]
Even that is not completely true. Most (if not all) states recognize that parents who want to avoid the institutionalized educational system. We call that "homeschooling." An increasing number of parents are choosing this option.

Regarding dropping out: There are a variety of reasons that people drop out of school, but I think it's reasonable that employers (and others) see this as a red flag. I think it creates a "rebuttable presumption" that a person lacks the proper motivation or character level to tough out the difficulties of schooling.

I think a responsible employer is looking for employees who are going to stick around for a while and who can handle the rigors of a job -- consistently doing good work, showing up on time, being conscientious about how s/he represents the company, etc. If it were me, I would want to know why the dropout happened in the first place, and what the person has done since leaving school. Someone who quit because a better opportunity came along is a far different prospect than someone who quit to pursue a life of delinquency. I think the same can be said for college. Someone who takes a couple years off to work so it is more affordable is in a different boat than someone who gave up in the middle of the semester and doesn't care about work quality, etc.

I think it is not so much going to school that is the issue but how you conducted yourself in whatever you chose to do. Experience does count, and character; school is just one way of demonstrating those things, and I think people are willing to recognize that there are other ways as well.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Terra Firma

[Era Might]

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='26 August 2009 - 12:29 PM' timestamp='1251304142' post='1956291']Regarding dropping out: There are a variety of reasons that people drop out of school, but I think it's reasonable that employers (and others) see this as a red flag. I think it creates a "rebuttable presumption" that a person lacks the proper motivation or character level to tough out the difficulties of schooling.[/quote]
Personally, I'm inclined to see it as a good sign that a student is unmotivated. The schooling system is pretty unmotivating. What is the motivation of schooling? That the student will receive a piece of paper in four years, which tells other people that the student was a good product of the institution. Maybe lack of motivation is a sign that the student has some life left inside that tells him that he does not have to live through an institution.

The difficulties of schooling indeed. If I ever write a book on this topic, I think I'll call it "the difficulties of schooling." It is rather difficult to find motivation when your life is controlled by institutions.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Era Might' date='26 August 2009 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1251305730' post='1956307']
Personally, I'm inclined to see it as a good sign that a student is unmotivated. The schooling system is pretty unmotivating. What is the motivation of schooling? That the student will receive a piece of paper in four years, which tells other people that the student was a good product of the institution. Maybe lack of motivation is a sign that the student has some life left inside that tells him that life is not about institutions.

The difficulties of schooling indeed. If I ever write a book on this topic, I think I'll call it "the difficulties of schooling." It is rather difficult to find motivation when your life is in the hands of an institution.
[/quote]
I suppose your perspective on this is largely dependent on your personal experience, both in the school(s) you've attended and with people who drop out. Personally, school was quite motivating for me. Perhaps I had exceptional teachers and/or peers. I don't know. But I have always appreciated the academic side of school (although the social side has, from time to time, been challenging).

If you are finding school unmotivating, perhaps it is time for you to seek another path in life. But that does not necessarily mean the whole institution is worthless.

[rachael]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='26 August 2009 - 11:16 AM' timestamp='1251299765' post='1956250']

[/quote]

[Laudate_Dominum]

This was a great discussion.